Ep 96 Driving High Performance Through Psychological Safety

In the first part of our Best of Series, Caitlin Cooper and Angela Malik revisit some of the most powerful conversations we have had on psychological safety and high-performing teams.

As we approach our 100th episode, this special round-up brings together insights from previous guests including Megan Giannini from Philips, Mike Wright from Network Rail, Laura McLean from Santander, Alex Myers, and Professor Adrian Furnham.

Together, these conversations explore what psychological safety really means at work, why it is not about being nice all the time, and how it supports performance, learning, innovation, inclusion, and healthier challenge.

From speaking up and listening up, to dealing with failure productively, measuring team climate, and creating environments where people can contribute honestly, this episode brings together the science, stories, and practical lessons that have shaped our thinking on psychological safety.

Listen now to Best Bits: Driving High Performance Through Psychological Safety.

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Transcript

Welcome And Best Bits Series

Dr Amanda Potter 0:04

Hello and welcome back to the Chief Psychology Officer Podcast. It's great to have you with us all. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to take a moment to share a quick update and also to say a big thank you. We're approaching an exciting milestone on the Chief Psychology Officer Podcast. Nearly 100 episodes, which is just amazing. What we're going to do over the next few episodes is bring you something a little bit different, the Best Bits episodes, each centred around a theme that have come up again and again in some of our most powerful conversations with our guests. Those themes are psychological safety, decision making, resilience and strength. And in these episodes, Angela, Christian, Caitlin will be reflecting back on some of our most interesting and impactful discussions, bringing together key moments, insights, practical tips, and memorable ideas, and bring them all together in that one place. So whether you've been listening right from the start and you've been from number one all the way up to 100, or whether you're newer to this podcast, these episodes will be a really great way to revisit some of those standout moments, the science, the neuroscience, and discover them for the first time. But before we get into today's episode, I just wanted to say a huge thank you. Thank you for listening, for sharing, and for supporting the podcast. It has meant so much. I can't believe we have built and created this award-winning podcast. I'm really looking forward to being back with you in the autumn. But in the meantime, I hope you enjoy these special episodes and have a fantastic summer. So let's go into today's episode, our very first Best Bits episode on driving high performance through psychological safety.

Hosts And Definition Of Psychological Safety

Speaker 3 1:50

Oh, that was a really lovely message from Amanda there. That's nice, wasn't it? Well, before we dive in, we thought we'll do a quick introduction of who you're going to be listening to for the next 45 minutes or so. So just to say hi, I'm Caitlin Cooper, principal business psychologist at BeTalent. And um yeah, I'm going to be taking a trip down memory lane today with my colleague Angela.

Angela Malik 2:13

That's right. I'm Angela Malik. I'm a leadership development partner at BTalent and quite a regular on the podcast. I started early, didn't I? Right. So driving high performance with psychological safety. Caitlin, have you got any thoughts on that?

Caitlin Cooper 2:29

Oh, I've got lots of thoughts. But just so that everyone's on the same page about what psychological safety is, my first thoughts would be really just to kind of define it around what it is and what are the benefits. Does that sound like a good place to start, Angela?

Angela Malik 2:42

Yes, absolutely. I'm always a fan of a good definition at the start of an episode.

Caitlin Cooper 2:47

Well, to be honest, I think probably the simplest definition uh to start with is Amy Edmondson's. She explains it as it's the belief that someone feels safe to take into personal risks. And based on our work at BeTalent, we really build upon that definition too, around it being the belief and the experience of the environment or climate in which we're operating in and feeling as though we're in a team or a group situation where we can speak up, share ideas, we can ask questions without feeling as though it's a silly question, we can challenge each other's ideas, we can make mistakes and admit to them, but doing all of that without that fear of being kind of judged or being punished. That's how we tend to define it. Um, I don't know if you'd add anything to that, Angela.

Angela Malik 3:30

I think just um one of the things that always sort of stuck with me was this idea of it's not being nice all the time. So it's about speaking up, but also constructively challenging. And like you said, in a space where you don't worry about being judged or being punished for the benefits of that, there are many. I mean, psychological safety basically touches everything, every single thing in the workplace, doesn't it? But innovation, error reporting, even, and compliance. So just general health and safety really wins as well. And having that sense of belonging in the team and that contributes directly to high performance, which I think you can speak more on.

Caitlin Cooper 4:11

There's a very strong business case for why psychological safety is a key driver of performance and high performing teams. And that's what a bunch of the clips that we're gonna share today is gonna shed light on from kind of our clients' experiences and their voices around the topic.

Angela Malik 4:27

Speaking of sharing experience, I believe at the time of recording, you're just about to take part in a panel, aren't you, on exactly this topic, psychological safety and performance.

Caitlin Cooper 4:38

It's at the ABP conference, and I'm gonna be joined by Mike Wright from Network Rail. Uh, he's also gonna be on the panel and is being led by um Alex Myers. Amazing. Yeah. Which actually leads

Network Rail On Courageous Exchange

Caitlin Cooper 4:50

on quite nicely because our first clip that we want to share is from Mike.

Angela Malik 4:54

This is from episode 73, setting high-performing teams in motion with Network Rail.

Michael Wright 5:00

I think, in simple terms, psychological safety is absolutely critical and has to be one of the foundational elements of whatever model we come up with. If teams aren't in an environment where they feel safe to contribute, to learn, to challenge, then arguably we're not working as a team anyway. I think one of my concerns with psychological safety is so often I get involved in conversations about it and people see it as a once and done type and thing. I've delivered it. I think what's really important for people to think about is actually it's a journey we have to take people on. It's not an overnight fix, it's not a training course. It starts with feeling included, doesn't it? How do I get welcomed into a team and made to feel a valued member of it? Building on that, how do I learn? It's that feeling safe to ask questions, to make those small mistakes, and then to contribute where I feel comfortable sharing my thoughts. I think what's sad, sometimes a lot of teams stop there. And I kind of see why, because that's the easy place to get to, isn't it? I feel welcomed, I'm sharing, I'm asking questions. We can do all of that by being polite and nice and friendly and getting on really quite superficially, can't we? One of the things Gartner talks about quite a lot in this is actually to get to that next step, which is true psychological safety, is that courageous exchange. How do you move from just being polite and friendly, getting rid of that superficial niceness to really getting to an environment where people are willing to ask the hard questions, to challenge ideas, to focus on solving the problem, rather than just protecting themselves or others' egos. It's really not easy and it can feel quite uncomfortable, but it's absolutely necessary if we want to get the best out of our teams. It's really important, I think, all the work we're doing here. And uh yeah, my takeaway from that is it's it's got to be a journey and we've got to be prepared to work at it and make a difference.

Caitlin Cooper 6:51

So there were a couple of things there that I think are important to touch on that I really liked what Mike explained. I think the first bit where he talks about that it's a journey, I 100% agree with that. We often say that it's not a destination. And if you think about teams as a living system, there are people constantly leaving, you have change in leadership, your priorities will shift. There are a bunch of things that kind of happen in that environment that will impact the level of psychological safety within a group and ultimately the dynamics at play. So, in that sense, agreeing with Mike around leaders need to be re-evaluating where they are at continuously and be thinking about, you know, the habits that they need to be continuously embedding in order to create psychological safety. And I think that's the hard part, isn't it? Because as you said, it's not just about doing the training, that's the starting point. It's about how do you sustainably embed psychological safety in a more sustainable way, particularly when you know, life's pressures and challenges. That's it.

Angela Malik 7:46

Yeah. And and the fact that like you don't just get there and okay, we've done it. Ta-da, we're there.

Caitlin Cooper 7:52

Yeah.

Angela Malik 7:52

Like you said, it's constantly changing. It I think um Adrian Furnum at one point on the podcast talks about how volatile it is, actually. And yeah, as soon as a personality changes in the team, the whole dynamic can shift, can't it?

Speaker 3 8:07

Yeah. If you think about it, you can have a team meeting and you've got 10 people in there and you might have a leader in there. And if that leader just leaves the room, that can also just create a different dynamic. And that's why we refer to psychological safety as a climate, don't we? Yeah. I think the other thing as well was Mike touching upon the idea, and you mentioned it as well around psychological safety. You know, it's not about being nice, and actually, people can think it's about protecting people from that discomfort when actually it's about speaking up and saying something when it would have been easier just to stay quiet and to have not said something. And actually, a few of the organizations that I've been working with recently have really embraced this idea of the difference between being kind and being nice. Because obviously, if you're being nice, you might not give feedback because you don't want to upset someone. But actually, the kind thing to do is give them the feedback because actually that's going to be the best thing for that person's development and ultimately the best thing for effectiveness and performance.

Angela Malik 9:04

Complacency is not where high performance lies. We know from our own research that um high performance is in that space of high accountability, high psychological safety. And holding people accountable means speaking up. It means giving constructive feedback and having those sometimes quite challenging conversations, but with, as you said, being kind about it. So having the compassion as well to approach it with care and have the best intentions as you come into the conversation.

Caitlin Cooper 9:34

Have you heard of Kim Scott's Radical Candor? It's about being constructive but also being empathetic. Great. Well, this is the thing, right? With all these clips, we could go down a rabbit hole and continue talking. Absolutely could. I am thanks button.

Angela Malik 9:48

I have a good clip for you though, since we're on the topic of high-performing teams. We had an episode very early days on high-performing teams with Megan Giannini from Philips, where we talked about exactly that high-performing teams, how to create them. This is from episode 26: High Performing Teams featuring Megan Giannini.

Megan Giannini 10:09

I think that some of the things that really stand out to me are ensuring that we have, as a team, really clear purpose, clear accountability, and clear priorities. So those are some of the things that you often see in the literature.

Dr Amanda Potter 10:24

And I would add belonging. So a team that has a strong set of common values and a common purpose are more likely to be aligned. And having a clear line of sight between what the team is delivering and the strategy

Building High-Performing Teams With Curiosity

Dr Amanda Potter 10:40

or the goals or aspirations of the organization is really key for that core purpose and that shared purpose. Teams that are high performing are often diverse, but even more importantly, inclusive. And our research with 40 C-suite women that we conducted a few years ago found that the single most important predictor of the success of the female leaders was the preparedness of their CEO or their leader to include them in conversation. And that's what that research was showing is that the most successful women that we interviewed, they pointed to inclusion and being listened to as being the most important thing for them and their careers.

Megan Giannini 11:20

One I'd like to add is really creating an environment to learn. So this is critical for a high-performing team because curiosity makes us feel good. Merely describing a day when you felt curious has been shown to boost mental and physical energy by 20%, even more so than describing a happy day. And there's so many opportunities to create learning. It doesn't have to be taking a class, right? And so being able to create that environment where the team is appreciating all that they can learn and recognizing that and seeking it out to find more creative solutions. They end up making less errors, have less levels of team conflict, and they don't feel that they have to be perfect, which creates a lot of uh safety as well to experiment and take risks and learn from those risks they've taken.

Angela Malik 12:16

I love that. I love that about curiosity.

Caitlin Cooper 12:19

Me too. I've just written that down. I was like, right, I need to write down that statistic. So having a day where you felt curious boosts mental and physical energy by 20%. It's amazing. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't surprise me to be honest. I think we've had a few conversations recently internally around curiosity in terms of embedding it as a competency for leaders, but also throughout organizations, no matter, you know, where you sit in that kind of organization, asking questions and being curious is just, you know, it definitely elevates thinking and collaboration. And I'm going to stop talking in a minute, Angela, but I think the other thing that we were speaking about internally was how as children, obviously, they have a huge amount of curiosity. But somewhere along the way, we kind of stop asking those questions and we get told what you have to do. And um, I really think that comes into play when in lots of organizations. So what can people be doing to kind of rechannel that curiosity would be my thought.

Angela Malik 13:18

Yeah, and all that by rechanneling that curiosity, we're essentially trying to stave off the groupthink risk, aren't we? And the functional stupidity, everyone just sort of like going along because that's what they think everyone else is doing. And yeah, psychological safety is about challenging the status quo sometimes.

Speaker 5 13:38

But I think there's a really tight relationship between inclusion and psychological safety. So you can see how these things all connect. But a high-performing team needs to feel psychologically safe, meaning that they're able to deal with failure in a healthy and productive way, which is truly underpinned by trust, respect, accountability, and candidness.

Caitlin Cooper 14:02

That was a really great clip. And I think my final thought really about you know, psychological safety is only one ingredient for, you know, a high-performing team. It's not the whole recipe. Obviously, there's that resilience piece, you know, people looking after themselves so they can show up at work and be their most productive self. They can manage their emotions and they're resilient because one, that helps them perform, but two, it then creates an environment around them of psychological safety. But also things like decision making and cognitive diversity, you know, having a team of people that think differently to each other, not having what I think it was Matthew Saeed said is a collective group of intelligent clones. Um inhibits innovation.

Angela Malik 14:44

Well, and I think of that list of things that they spoke about, how to build a high-performing team, a lot of those things were all just elements of psychological safety, according to at least according to our own research, our own model, uh, purpose, clarity, a sense of belonging, an environment for learning. Those are all elements of our model.

Caitlin Cooper 15:05

And actually, we did a piece of research with um Mike Wright again, mentioning Mike Wright. Through that research we did with them into what contributes to high-performing teams. One thing that really stuck with me was the piece around people feeling that when they were particularly going through a challenging time in a project, which was then deemed a high-performing project and a high-performing team, is they found that having the personal support and care from not only their team members but also their leader really made a difference for them to be able to feel like they could push through and that they could do what they needed to do. And that was really consistent message throughout.

Angela Malik 15:37

That's the thing, isn't it? That cultivating that supportive environment is what separates good leadership from great. And most leaders are good. They want to create that environment. They just get stuck in behaviors or ways of working that can sometimes inhibit a supportive environment unintentionally. Amanda brings

When Great Intentions Create Risk

Angela Malik 15:55

this to life quite nicely in episode 69: Creating Inclusive Workplaces in Santander, the power of psychological safety.

Dr Amanda Potter 16:02

There's one colleague, Anne, who said to me when we were talking about psychological safety, she said to me, the path to hell is paved with great intention. And she used it to summarize my thinking when we were talking about it. Because one of the things I said to her is that I assumed a bias that when the environment is negative and when it's toxic and there's poor psychological safety, that it's because there's bad management, because it's bad leadership, or because the intention is bad. But that's not necessarily the case from our research. What we found is that pretty much most of the leaders who either create positive or negative environments have great intentions. And some of the leaders who create the most unsafe environments have the very, very best of intentions, but they're ruthless in driving results and they're relentless in their pursuit of targets, and they hold back from sharing too much information because they want to protect employees, or they're overly nice to everybody, or they look for consensus because they don't want to make the wrong decision. So they're just trying too hard. The path to hell is paved with great intention, and even the very best and well-intentioned managers can create toxic, uncomfortable, unsafe environments.

Caitlin Cooper 17:17

So, Angela, what are your thoughts on that one?

Angela Malik 17:20

I think for me, it just underscores what I've already sort of said about psychological safety anyway. That people hear, are you psychologically safe at work? Does your team feel psychologically safe? And they immediately jump to, is it toxic or not? And actually, exactly what Amanda was just saying there, most leaders do have good intentions. They want to create a psychologically safe environment for their teams. So really then it's about just having that awareness, isn't it? The awareness of understanding how you impact the team and understanding what certain behaviors will do to either contribute to or take away from the safe feeling of the team.

Caitlin Cooper 18:00

Yeah, I think a lot of the time we find that actually those leaders have really positive intentions in the sense that they want to do a really good job. They want some really great outcomes for their team, for the business. It's important to kind of obviously have that awareness, but also to be able to find that right balance of yes, there are going to be times when you're gonna have to maybe push a little bit harder because there's a lot more work going on at the time, but actually also remember to take the time to appreciate a job well done, whether that's individually or just as a team and celebrate successes.

Angela Malik 18:32

Well, exactly. And like you said before, take the time to check in on your resilience levels as well and look after yourselves. So I know one of the things that people often connect with psychological safety is like speak up culture and the ability to speak up. But this next clip is kind of interesting. So it sort of talks about yes, okay, speak up, but also what leaders need to do in order to encourage a speak up culture. This is from episode 38, How to Create a Psychologically Safe Environment. And our colleague Christian asks

Listening Up And Four Practical Steps

Angela Malik 19:05

Amanda for examples of organizations that demonstrate high and low psychological safety. And then Kristian and Amanda explore how to change the level of psychological safety in a team.

Dr Amanda Potter 19:16

The first example was Anglo-American, who are a previous client of ours. And they're a mining company, of course. And they had a new female CEO. She was the first female CEO of Anglo-American, and she was someone who created assemblies and insisted on hearing every miner's opinion of how things were going and how they could be safer. And this listening up, which is what we're talking about now, resulted in a drop of fatalities and increased operating profits, even though they had slightly lower revenues. She even shut down the most dangerous mine as a result of those assemblies and as a result of listening.

Kristian Lees Bell 19:51

It just shows as well as creating a higher level of safety, drop in fatalities, then there was also a um a bottom line benefit as well. What about the low safety example?

Dr Amanda Potter 20:00

I think you pointed out to me, Christian, was the Boeing 737, they had a huge number of catastrophes 2018 to 2019, where 346 people died, and it resulted in the longest grounding of an airline in the US and they suspended the production of the aircraft indefinitely, which of course impacted their reputation massively. And this was caused by their automated flight control system, which employees had serious concerns about, but they didn't want to speak up because they're afraid of losing their job. So if the more senior people had been listening and observing the behaviour of these people who are being more reticent in sharing the risks, they might have spotted that something was wrong. So it is about speaking up, but it's also about listening up to.

Kristian Lees Bell 20:44

And I guess for them to create an opportunity in an environment where people can have their voice heard and then share their concerns, then there needs to be create some space and opportunity for that and meant sometimes to pause, I guess, as well, not just to carry on driving forward.

Dr Amanda Potter 20:58

Pause is so important, you're so right.

Kristian Lees Bell 21:00

So how do you change the level of psychological safety in a team?

Dr Amanda Potter 21:04

There are four broad steps. So the first one is awareness, which is actually quite simple. Now that we have built the model, created the tools, which is the questionnaire and the cards, it's quite simple actually to identify and become aware of the level of psychological safety in the organization. But whilst doing that, always remembering that the intention is usually very good from individuals and from leaders, and they want to create a high psychological safety. But very often the behaviours that they demonstrate or the interactions that they make can have quite negative consequences on psychological safety.

Kristian Lees Bell 21:42

And what about the second, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter 21:43

The second is recognition. So once you're aware, you need to then recognise as individuals. So you and I, Christian, we need to recognise the impact that we have on our team as senior members of Zircon and Be Talent. So how do our individual behaviors are impact? Impact the level of psychological safety in the team, whether our intentions are good or bad. And what are the behaviours that we need to continue doing and some of the behaviors we need to stop doing.

Kristian Lees Bell 22:11

And the third?

Dr Amanda Potter 22:12

The third then is contracting. So as a team, you and I would need to agree what needs to change. We would give each other feedback. We would look at the results of the questionnaire, and we would recognize and identify some of the behaviours that were working and not working and what needs to change between us. And finally, just to preempt you asking me, the next one is to agree the actions. So what are we going to do about it? And some of the actions we have, for example, if the risk was around personal connection. So, Christian, if you were all work, all being professional and not focusing on the personal stuff, some of the actions that you could put into your agenda is that at the beginning of every meeting that you have with one of our team, you have a five-minute catch-up with no agenda. That would be a great one. Or you would have a series of questions that you could give yourself that you ask people just to warm up the conversation, just to get more familiar with people all the time. So you could give yourself a few micro actions just to create that sense of personal connection with some of our team. If indeed that was you.

Caitlin Cooper 23:09

Ooh, that one linked back quite nicely to what we were just saying, wasn't it? About the path uh to hell is paved with good intention. Yeah, definitely. But I think the other thing that I think I took away from that one, or at least want to maybe emphasize, is that recognition piece. I think it's it's something we say is psychological safety starts with you. It's about being aware and recognizing how are you showing up as a leader or as an individual. What are you doing that is unintentionally creating a lack of psychological safety when you have that level of self-awareness? You have a better understanding of the tone that you're setting as a leader and the environment that you're creating.

Angela Malik 23:45

I also like the fact that she emphasized action and committing to something. It starts with just embedding small changes of behavior that have ripple effects throughout your team and then throughout the organization. I know you've seen that in real time in your work with Santander, for example.

Caitlin Cooper 24:02

No, I think exactly that. I think one thing that, at least from the workshops and the work that we've done, the action piece that people take away, I think, okay, I'm not gonna say it's the easier thing, but the probably the one that sounds easy, but it is hard to sustain, is when we think about resilience and the things that we can do to look after ourselves, is we can easily say, like I can say today, oh, I need to make sure I go outside and I get a 30-minute walk to get my steps in, but also to get some sunlight and to activate my default mode network, which basically is going to help me be more creative. But that's so much easier said than done because actually, then when you've got all these different things popping up in the workday, it then is easy to deprioritize that. I think that's one thing I've seen is when people walk away from those conversations, is we can create habits. It's just how you prioritize them. And actually, I think having an accountability partner can really help in those situations.

Angela Malik 24:54

Definitely. I really relate to that example of someone who just comes into a meeting and like launches into business straight away because once the workload hits a certain point or the pressure builds, or we've got a deadline looming, I have to actively remind myself to like pause for two minutes and just ask how someone's day has been, or check in and see how my colleagues are before I start throwing ideas at them. And I mean, ultimately, when you do do that, you find that the ideas that you're getting back from them are better too, because everybody's relaxed into that conversation. So you have kind of set the tone for the rest of that conversation by connecting.

Caitlin Cooper 25:34

Yeah, because people can pick up on it as well. Well, you know, a lot of the time people can pick up on whether someone's seeming a bit more stressed.

Angela Malik 25:42

Yeah, on the topic of stress and pressure, we have actually done a lot of research, haven't we, into the effects on the brain of that and ultimately then the effects on one's ability

Stress, Fear Of Failure And Stupidity

Angela Malik 25:55

to innovate, feel psychologically safe to begin with, and lead with curiosity. So let me play that clip for you now. This is from episode 62, Enhancing Innovation Through Psychological Safety, which you co-hosted with Amanda, Caitlin.

Dr Amanda Potter 26:09

So when we are stressed or anxious, it's really hard to innovate because it impairs our cognitive function and our creativity by narrowing our focus. It also disrupts our working memory, it inhibits that flexible thinking that we've got when we're using the default mode network. And because we've got a high level of stress hormones like cortisol, this can actually interfere with the brain function. And because it also inhibits the CEO of the brain, it actually is taking blood and oxygen away from the vital parts towards the lung, towards the limbs and the lungs, so that we can activate the fight and flight response. So if we want to innovate, we ultimately need to create psychologically safe places where people feel like they can think freely.

Caitlin Cooper 26:52

So we've got stress. So what other things come to mind when we think about what could hinder our ability to innovate?

Dr Amanda Potter 26:59

I think the obvious one when we're talking about psychological safety is the fear of failure, which many of us are prone to anyway because of our negative information bias. We don't want to fail. So many of us want to avoid failure, and that can be a significant barrier to innovation. But the one I think is really important actually from an organizational perspective is functional stupidity. And it's creating that rigidity of thinking or processes where we require people to follow cultural norms or patterns or processes because it can really impede innovation and it can really limit a person's ability to think freely or consider alternatives if they're having to just do what they're told or defer to leadership.

Caitlin Cooper 27:38

So I guess the functional stupidity, the fear of failure, all of that sounds to me links back to the psychological safety, as you said, which goes back to our very first point that psychologically safe teams are more likely to innovate.

Dr Amanda Potter 27:52

They really are. And just in case anyone's interested in that functional stupidity, comment. If you go to the stupidity paradox book by Professor Andre Spicer, there's a whole load about stupidity paradox in that book, which is fab. So I think to your point, Caitlin, yeah, it's all connected. It always is, isn't it? Stress, resilience, innovation, psychological safety. It is all related. And when we're anxious or when we're low on psychological safety, or when we're low on resilience, we are not priming ourselves to experience the positive affect. We're going to be less likely to activate that default mode network, and we're unlikely, therefore, to come up with new and original or creative ideas.

Caitlin Cooper 28:37

Again, it just makes me think of that word curiosity. And wasn't there a quote a client of ours said? I think we spoke about it the other day. What was it, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter 28:45

It was Laura, Laura McLean. Curiosity is psychological safety's best friend on our ambassador psychological safety programme that they're rolling out. So that's a brilliant statement, actually. I hadn't really thought about it in that way before.

Caitlin Cooper 28:58

So then how can we be more curious and really tap into that when we're talking about innovation?

Dr Amanda Potter 29:04

I think it's all the things we've been talking about before. Psychological safety is crucial in fostering innovation. It's about the perception that if we give people the opportunity to take into personal risk, such as speaking up and sharing ideas or expressing concerns without the fear of negative consequences to self-image or status of career, we're going to create the environment where people think that their ideas are valued, respected, and can make a difference. And therefore they're more likely to be innovative in their suggestions.

Caitlin Cooper 29:35

Well, we could dive into that, Angela, but I think that Amanda said it pretty nicely herself. There's strong links between those things. And yeah, there's a lot to learn if we kind of take a minute to understand how we experience stress.

Angela Malik 29:47

Absolutely. And then I know we've talked about having that self-awareness, but another aspect of creating a psychologically safe environment is recognizing when someone else in the room is not feeling safe. We had an episode with Alex Myers, which our colleague Christian co-hosted with Amanda, and they talk about what might lead to a loss of psychological safety and the signs

Conflict Triggers And Mediation Signals

Angela Malik 30:10

to look out for. This is from episode 82, Navigating Conflict, Psychological Safety in Mediation.

Dr Amanda Potter 30:17

So what happens in a situation where there isn't psych safety, or when might a conflict or mediation situation lose all sense of psychological safety?

Alex Myers 30:29

So what I've noticed about the mediations that come to me is very often it's something really minor that triggers it. So it's not something that is quite huge, a big blow-up. Often it's something that is very little, someone didn't talk to me in a very nice way, or we had a not very nice interaction about something. And that's been kind of almost the trigger. I think again, if you look at some of the psychologically safe constructs and using the B talent language, that just shows that people aren't learning from mistakes, uh, they're avoiding failures, they're not honest with each other or with their managers, they're working in an environment that just doesn't feel very nice or conducive to great working relationships.

Dr Amanda Potter 31:09

So what they bring into that mediation conversation potentially then may reflect the environment that they're experiencing in the workplace, then is what you're saying, Alex.

Alex Myers 31:19

Absolutely. So when I think about psychological safety and mediation, I think about two ways. The one way we've described already is how can I create an environment where people are going to speak, that they're going to feel safe, they're going to feel like I am neutral, they're going to feel like that they're going to have a really decent conversation and there's going to be some sort of positive action as a result. They're going to get a goal together. So that's one way. The other way is that by creating psychologically safe environments, people are more open to these kinds of conversations. So they're already coming in feeling actually, this is worth my time. This organization takes these sorts of things seriously. It's not going to be a really dreadful experience. It might feel uncomfortable, absolutely, and emotions come in, and sometimes that doesn't feel great. And in my working life, I'm a very empathic person. I feel really sensitive towards people. As a mediator, you need to be neutral. It's back to those key principles I was talking to you about. I need to be impartial. So I can do all sorts of things to indicate that I'm listening to each party, but I can't show sympathy towards each one. I can set up the environment so they feel secure and safe, but we've got to kind of follow and trust the process of mediation.

Kristian Lees Bell 32:27

Alex, I'm curious, how do you know if mediation isn't working, if things are stalling? And when that might suggest that psychological safety, people don't feel psychologically safe in that particular context or interaction.

Alex Myers 32:40

So there's some science. So again, I described creating this environment, this psychologically safe environment, before people walk into the mediation is really important. So the way I set up the room is really important. So often it will be myself and then two parties, and I set their chairs up so that they're talking to each other. The whole idea here is for the people to talk about the conflict. And you'll notice people are so cross with each other when they come in. They can't even look at each other. Sometimes they're so cross. And they change their chairs so that they're talking to me. So again, at the beginning, whilst we're building up this safe environment, people address me, they talk to me. And a lot of my dialogue is around don't talk to me, talk to each other, and helping them listen to each other, helping translate or reframe what they're saying so they can talk to each other. So a key indication for me is when they start talking to each other. They go for a break or whatever, when they come back in, they don't move the chairs again. So again, these are some signs that I know that it's going well. Very often people leave, they walk out, they need a break. And again, what I'm doing is thinking about okay, who is this person? Where are they from? What is their background? If I work with people who work in offices, they're very used to being in an environment in a meeting room for a significant amount of time. But that's not always the case. I work with people who work in kitchens, uh, or I have an example of a handyman. And I know that that their natural style is not sitting in a room talking to somebody else for hours on end. So again, I'll create breaks with following them and their process. It's self-determined, it's it's going where they want it and need it to go. But I'll just be aware of where they are, what their body language is, uh, some of the non-visual cues. Right, okay. I think again, a couple of things that I took away from that. I think there was kind of two parts to it. The first thing I was taking away was the triggers part. Everyone has different triggers, don't they, when it comes to psychological safety. And it's about being aware of that and how what triggers you, but also what you might be doing to trigger someone else.

Angela Malik 34:34

Yeah, exactly. It can be quite small things that can just shift that climate in the room. We should recognize that it takes a certain level of emotional intelligence to recognize when that shift has happened and what little small thing might have triggered it. And having that kind of being able to read the room like that is quite a skill. And particularly, I was just thinking if someone is neurodiverse, that might be an even more tricky skill for them to have. So just to recognize that it's being able to sense the nuance is is quite a skill. I mean, the fact that it is a skill means it's something that you can train, you can build that awareness up. But yeah, it just to sort of point out that for some people that might be more of a challenge than for others.

Caitlin Cooper 35:24

No, I think that's such a good point. I think emotional intelligence is obviously so important, but it is, it's a tricky one. And actually, I think kind of linked to that, the the second part I picked up on was where they're talking about body language. And it was making me think of there's a lady called Vanessa Van Edward. She did a podcast. She's on a Diover CEO, she specializes in science-based people skills. And she actually has a lot of great tips around body language and how to kind of create an environment where people feel immediately safe. And she was saying about showing palms. So even if you walk into a room and you show your palm, that's like a safe indicator.

Angela Malik 36:01

Really interesting. So I suppose it might be worth now sort of taking a step back to the bigger picture of yes, psychological safety is good for a teen, but why it's not just a nice to have, it is a must. It is business critical. And we have a really well-articulated clip from Laura McLean at Santander about exactly what psychological safety has done for Santander

Santander On Business-Critical Safety

Angela Malik 36:25

and why it's business critical. Let's take a listen. This is another clip from episode 69: Creating Inclusive Workplaces in Santander.

Laura McLean 36:34

One of the reasons I'm so passionate about it is it's more than just nice to have.

Caitlin Cooper 36:54

And I suppose that's probably contributed to why you're taking a focus of it within Santander. So why do you believe that it's important within Santander?

Laura McLean 37:03

What's your perspective on that? Well, obviously, we know it's something I'm personally very passionate about. But looking after our leadership development strategy for the last few years and knowing that at Santander, it's the place to be yourself. We know that there's a richness to human experience that can shape amazing solutions for our customers. And by focusing on psychological safety, we open the door to that. In the past few years, the way we live, the way we work, it's transformed so much. The pandemic forced us to rethink what we need to thrive as individuals, as businesses, as a society.

Dr Amanda Potter 37:41

It's so interesting that you say that because it is all about environment, isn't it? And that's the point. Psychological safety is all about environment, it's all about feeling, it's all about experience. And our experience of our work life has changed so fundamentally. We have to think much deeper and much harder about how we can make sure people feel included and integrated. And all the work we're doing now around neurodiversity and cognitive diversity too, everybody has different needs. So how can we help people to feel safe and included despite their different needs? I think it's really cool the work you're doing.

Laura McLean 38:12

And I think the expectations of society and the workforce are changing as we learn more about different needs, you know, and and the diversity that that can bring to our ideas and our solutions. And I think without that safety, we risk stifling the innovation and the resilience we've worked so hard to build through what we've already experienced. What I wanted to see was a consistency when it comes to psychological safety and introducing the topic and the resources from Zircon to senior leadership and a large proportion of our people managers this year in my conversations. I'm seeing, I'm hearing, and I'm feeling the effects and the difference that it's making. Because as Amada said, it's about the environment.

Dr Amanda Potter 38:55

That's so amazing. And actually, you've articulated beautifully the steps that we talk about. We talk about the fact the first step is around education, the second step is around personal awareness. So, how do I feel? Then it's team reflection or departmental reflection, how do we feel? And what do my colleagues feel when we're thinking about psych safety? And then what am I going to do? What actions am I prepared to take to actually change my environment and how everybody feels? It isn't just about reading a book or just about completing a questionnaire, it's most definitely about what do you do with that information and how can you implement change?

Caitlin Cooper 39:30

I'm curious to know, Laura. I guess obviously you're doing a lot more work in psychological safety over the past year, but what was the understanding of psychological safety before this past year? Would you say people had even heard of the word within Santander or would you say that it's definitely, I guess, what's the experience now compared to what it was before when we talk about psychological safety as a concept?

Laura McLean 39:48

I think people had heard of it as a concept, but it varied from, you know, I've heard of it, but I don't quite know what it means, right, down to, you know, individuals who who had more of an understanding because they had that passion. But it is a fairly new concept, isn't it? So I think that work and the the consistency that I mentioned is super important in making sure that what we did was focused on leadership where we have that high influence, but also the people manager population and making sure that everybody had that grounding of knowledge and understanding and education and they have got the highest impact.

Dr Amanda Potter 40:25

And what's so lovely about that is that you what you have three and a half thousand people managers, is that correct?

Laura McLean 40:31

Around that number, yes.

Dr Amanda Potter 40:32

Around that number. And so so far we have already managed to get in front of nearly a thousand people managers, and we've already scheduling with you another thousand, hopefully, for 2025.

Laura McLean 40:42

We've got plans for next year. We're not slowing down, we're speeding up.

Dr Amanda Potter 40:46

It's amazing, it's so good. And what's so lovely about it is month on month we actually track the psychological safety of those people managers and have been doing it since the very beginning. And what we're seeing is even though it's not test-retest because they're not doing it more than once, they're different populations every month. Because of that focus on action and that focus on reflection, we're starting to see that the psychological safety within the people manager population within Santander is improving. And that is just because psychological safety is increasingly on their agenda and people are starting to understand, I believe, from our conversations that how important it is. And that's quite different to some of the work we've been doing with other clients, which is interesting, Laura, because sometimes when we start talking about psychological safety, its importance and its impact, the level of psychological safety initially goes down. Because once people understand it and they're aware of it, they then realize it's missing. So it almost takes a dip before it goes up. But actually, it's really great that we're seeing a very steady increase month by month so far for the first year of assessments within Santander.

Angela Malik 41:55

I thought it was very interesting to think about how they're measuring psychological safety and the fact that, like Amanda said, it's not test-retest, but they're still able to measure improvements in psychological safety throughout the people manager population. I thought that was really interesting. And it kind of leads into a slightly more scientific episode featuring Professor Adrian Ferna about measuring psychological safety. Why measure it at all, really? Who cares? How is it relevant if you're not a psychologist? So he gets into the weeds a bit with that, and we'll play it now for you. This is

The Science Of Measuring Safety

Angela Malik 42:35

from episode 89, The Real Science of Psychological Safety with Professor Adrian Furnum.

Adrian Furnham 42:40

Climate culture are quite difficult to measure. I wrote a book on this 20 years ago and looked at the various measures of corporate culture. They're very different from each other and they're very what one might call high level. But the work on psychological safety goes back now over 25 years. In fact, there are, I was looking this morning, there's been some meta-analysis of over a hundred studies in the area. At least compared to climate and culture, it's more specific. It's not that specific, but it is much more clearly specific. So the first in 1999, there was the first paper in this area, and there were some definitions of what it meant: a respect for each other, interested in each other, no rejection for honesty. This is workers in a group, have other positive intentions, can get help from others, free to experiment. The idea that when working with uh of other people, you can trust them, you can be honest. I don't want to use the word authentic, but you can say really what you feel without fear of punishment. And that's clearly an important thing to have in any group. I remember some years ago talking to a man and he said he was a very senior military officer, and he said to me, There's only two things I ask in my boss is he any good and do you trust him? And this issue of trust, trust with Your colleagues. So the early studies involved the seven-item questionnaire, and then others have tried, there are not many other questionnaires in this area. In fact, there are very few. I was surprised by that. Where people are trying to say, well, let's understand this concept, let's measure it, and then let's show what it relates to. Because if you're going to make a song and dance about it, then you've got to show it relates to something. Well, you know, what's most interesting about these metro analyses is they've shown that when you measure the person's psychological safety of the group, it is related to performance, commitment, burnout, and so forth. There is a good psychological relationship, as you would expect. The more psychological safe people feel, the more not only job satisfied they are, but more productive they are, the less they like to burn out, the more commitment they have, the less turnover. It's a good thing to have psychological safety. And as Amanda said, I don't think one or two items in a survey really captures it very well. I think it's more important than that. You don't have to have very long surveys. I think 20 items is good enough. And to have sub-factors. So any concept, it'll have factors associated with it. So I think you know, measuring these in the group is a very important thing to do because it tells you about the dynamic of the group.

Angela Malik 45:25

Well, I think the professor sort of says it all right there, doesn't he? About why it's important to measure it. But how do we measure that? Lots of organizations try to measure psychological safety in engagement surveys, for example. But they're only asking like two, maybe four questions. I'm no psychometrician, but I know Amanda has said to me before that if you're only asking four questions, you're always gonna get, unless it was like super, super toxic in your workplace or something, you're always gonna get, yes, I feel safe. If you ask someone, do you feel psychologically safe? They will say, Yeah, sure, why not? And then if you go into the nuance of it and actually ask about behaviors or habits that are happening in the team, then you start to see a more full picture about where we are in terms of innovation, reporting errors, a learning culture, a feedback culture that aren't necessarily apparent if you're just going and saying, Do you feel psychologically safe?

Caitlin Cooper 46:22

Do you feel safe, Caitlin? You know what though? I think you saying that just brings me back to that point of curiosity. I think if you were to dig deeper into anything and be curious about, okay, well, and that's what actually clients come to us, you know, saying, like, we've got this engagement survey, we're getting flags that something is going on here, people are not feeling safe. Can we look into this further? And I guess that's our solution is to measure that through using the psychological safety questionnaire, which allows people to answer a larger series of questions and then use it as a diagnostic to then be able to look into it a bit deeper and understand what needs to change.

Angela Malik 47:01

Yeah, exactly. It's interesting that you say that we have clients coming to us and saying we've got flags in our engagement survey that something's not quite right, because another thing that we do here is that the engagement survey, everything seems to be saying it's all fine. And then when you start just scratching at the surface, you

Why Surveys Overstate Safety

Angela Malik 47:20

find all manner of other things going on. And we've got a clip from Amanda that talks about just that and why use a psychometric. That's why, because you can scratch at that surface. So let's listen.

Dr Amanda Potter 47:32

What we've seen within organizations is that we get an inflated response to the questions in engagement surveys around psychological safety. People are more likely to acquiesce or to rate organizations positively when they answer engagement survey questions and say that everything's fine because they associate poor psychological safety with bullying and harassment very often when they do not understand the definition of it or they're unclear about the concept. So, therefore, often we'll go to an organization, they'll say to us, we have an issue with team performance, we think the environment's wrong, but we know it's not an issue with psychological safety because apparently in our engagement survey data, everything's fine.

Angela Malik 48:18

I don't think there's anything else we could add there. Amanda covered it quite succinctly. There's one final clip I'd like to share, again from episode 69, Creating Inclusive Workplaces in Santander, where Amanda and Laura McLean talk about how to make significant changes and why

Micro And Macro Change Plus Close

Angela Malik 48:35

psychological safety matters. Let's listen.

Dr Amanda Potter 48:38

If we really want to make a significant change in an organization, we need to think at a macro and a micro level. At a micro level, we need to have conversations with individuals, we need to raise their awareness, we need to educate, and we need teams to understand how they can personally influence and make change, and how they can collectively influence and make change when it comes to psych safety. But at a macro level, it's about strategy, it's about talent management processes, it's about libraries of behaviours and competencies and values, making sure that they are all driving towards an environment of psych safety and not undermining it.

Laura McLean 49:20

As our world evolves, so must our workplaces. Psych safety is essential for navigating this journey. And it's not just a moral imperative, it's a strategic advantage. And you'll hear me say that over and over. I'm sure you've heard it before. But organisations that prioritize psychological safety will build resilient workforces that not only survive future challenges but thrive through them. And as we look to what's next, we need organizations where everybody feels empowered, engaged, and valued at every level. That we will allow for more fruitful discussions, the richness of human experience to come through, result in better solutions for the organization and for the customers. So it isn't just about creating a positive work environment, it's so much more than that. It's about positioning ourselves to succeed in a rapidly changing world.

Dr Amanda Potter 50:14

So it's a strategic disadvantage if you don't, frankly.

Laura McLean 50:18

Amen.

Angela Malik 50:19

Amen indeed.

Caitlin Cooper 50:20

Exactly. I think that is the perfect clip for you to have shared with our listeners because Laura's got a very powerful articulation and I think it really lands. Absolutely.

Angela Malik 50:33

It's strategically important, it's business critical, and it's also one of the key, key factors of a high-performing team.

Caitlin Cooper 50:41

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that psychological safety is an enabler to performance. That would be my final thoughts.

Angela Malik 50:48

I shall quote you on that, Caitlin. Well, it's been lovely having a conversation with you, Caitlin. Of course, we did miss Amanda, but it's we heard her.

Caitlin Cooper 50:56

We heard her in the clips. She was there in spirit.

Angela Malik 50:59

So she's been here in spirit. What a lovely way to express that. Well, shall we sign off in the true Amanda style? If you liked this episode, please give it a thumbs up. Give us a rating on whatever platform you're listening on, and share it with a friend.

Caitlin Cooper 51:14

Thank you, everyone.

Angela Malik 51:15

Thank you, and we hope you have a wonderful and successful day.