Ep 93 Stop fixing people: start fixing work with Jo Yarker

Ep 93 Stop fixing people: start fixing work with Jo Yarker

What does it take to sustain performance over time?

In this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer podcast, Dr Amanda Potter is joined by Professor Jo Yarker to explore how organisations can create healthy working environments that support both wellbeing and performance.

Many organisations invest in resilience and wellbeing initiatives, yet still struggle with burnout, disengagement, and declining performance. This conversation challenges why and where organisations may be focusing on the wrong solutions.

Rather than placing responsibility on individuals, this episode explores the role of organisational systems, leadership behaviour, and work design in shaping employee health and resilience.

Key themes include:

•  Why sustainable performance depends on healthy work, not just resilient individuals 
•  The shift from reactive wellbeing initiatives to proactive prevention 
•  How leadership and line managers influence employee health and performance 
•  The impact of workload, clarity, and consistency on resilience 
•  The IGLU framework. understanding how individual, group, leader, organisational, and external factors interact 
•  Why health should be treated as a core business outcome 

This episode is for HR leaders, senior executives, and organisations looking to reduce burnout, improve employee wellbeing, and build environments where people can perform consistently under pressure.

Because sustainable performance is not driven by effort alone. it is enabled by healthy work.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Work Health Matters

Angela Malik 0:04

Welcome to the Chief Psychology Officer, the show where we dive deep into the psychology behind leadership, business, and success. And today we are looking at how we can reshape organizations and roles so that people can strive to have healthy working lives. Before we begin, I just want to say that if you enjoy this conversation, be sure to share it, give this episode a five-star rating, and subscribe to the podcast to find more resources at www.thecpo.co.uk. Today we're exploring intervention versus prevention, how organizations can go from firefighting to preventing health and well-being issues from the beginning. I'm Angela Malik and I'm joined by our very own Chief Psychology Officer, Dr. Amanda Potter. Hello, Amanda. Hi, Angela.

Meet Joe Yarker And His Research

Dr Amanda Potter 0:48

Thank you very much for hosting today.

Angela Malik 0:50

And I'm very pleased to introduce our guest, Jo Yarker, professor at Burbeck and managing partner at Affinity Health at Work. Jo, tell us a bit about yourself.

Jo Yarker 1:00

Hi. Well, thank you for having me. And yes, I am an occupational psychologist and I specialise in health and wellbeing at work. So in my role at Burkbeck, I supervise doctorate students looking at a whole range of different issues in our work through Affinity. We do a lot of research. So we are a research organization where we work with policy funders, with organizations, with professional bodies such as this CIPD, the HSE, IOSH to look at what does good work look like and how do we help people stay healthy and well and what guidance is needed to do that. And then we also have a consultancy stream in our Affinity at Health organization. And there we work with organisations of all sorts of sizes across the globe to understand how we can diagnose or understand what's really going on in the organization. And then how do we act, what solutions are needed to really change the way that work is done and turn the dial on preventing and supporting people.

Dr Amanda Potter 2:00

So there's half of your business that's very similar to ours, which is the consulting side. But the bit that's really interesting to us is that system and policy stuff that you're doing, which is you're influencing the industry. So that's really cool. Because when I saw your keynote at the BPS conference, I was really inspired by how much you're doing at that level. Because as an organization, we focus very much about making the difference at the company level and the individual and the team level. But you're making a difference at a much bigger systemic level, which is why I wanted you to come and be a guest on the pod. So thank you very much. That's very good.

Jo Yarker 2:34

Thank you. Well, thank you for your kind words as well. I think over the years we've been incredibly fortunate to be involved in a lot of different research projects that have enabled us to develop those relationships. And it kind of feels like the time is right now because there's such a big need for work in this space and evidence in this space. And we work with lots of academic partners, lots of organizations that really help us try and move from beyond a single organization to what are those synergies across sectors, across job roles, and how do we start to turn the dial so that work is better for everybody, regardless of where you are.

Angela Malik 3:13

Feels like I've got two speakers at opposite sides of the same coin. So you're looking at systems and at prevention, Jo. And Amanda, our work at BeTalent is very much on the intervention side of the coin.

Dr Amanda Potter 3:27

It is, isn't it? Because we come in when there's a challenge, so there's a problem or there's an opportunity. So a lot of the damage, if you like, has already been done by the time we get in because it's being recognized at the highest level. And so the pain has been felt by a number of people for a number of years very often before we are actually invited in. It gets to that tipping point when we get invited into the organization. So it's brilliant that actually the work you're doing, Jo, will almost slow that down so that the work we come in could be maybe come in sooner, or it isn't such a kind of massive job for us or challenging need for us at the point that we come in the door. Anyway, in your keynote, you were talking all about the challenge of health at work. Could you elaborate? What's the real research you're focusing on at the moment?

The IGLU Framework For Healthy Work

Jo Yarker 4:16

So we are, I suppose, incredibly fortunate that we work across the whole sphere. So when we're thinking about health at work, people have different things in mind, don't they? We all have different visions of what healthy workers look like. And a lot of my career I've been working in the space of chronic conditions. So trying to understand what can help people who are experiencing sometimes quite significant health challenges, stay at work and get back into work. But also when others are thinking about health, they're just thinking, what's the best version of me that can turn up at work and how can I really make sure that I'm keeping on top of all my healthy habits to really optimise health? So we work across the spectrum in terms of that individual level. But over the years, what we've been doing is trying to understand the experience of managing health at work and the impact that work has on health and your ability to sustain your health regardless of what health looks like for you. And I think what we've realized is the first part in our journey was recognizing it can't all be on the individual, and the managers really need to get involved and support that individual in staying well at work. And then over the last 20 years, we've really been looking at each of those different levels of a system to work out what plays a role. And that's where our IGLU framework has come into play. So really thinking about what is it across the individual, the group level, the leader level, the organizational policies, practices, and then what goes on outside and how do we interplay between organizations and our local systems, our national systems, to really think about what supports people to stay well and thrive. And that IGLU framework really gives a multi-layered view of that. And from a practical level, you can think, well, an individual staying inside their IGLI when it's cold outside, they can stay safe and well. But when any of those building blocks are not there, then we're going to experience challenges. And that's certainly something that we see when we're doing our research, when we're looking across the system, but also when we're looking at individual challenges at either the individual experience or the line manager experience or policy level. When there are challenges, we know that many people really don't thrive. So how do we put all those building blocks together is really where the research is sitting.

Dr Amanda Potter 6:36

With IGLU, then, so we've got individual, we've got group, leader, and organization. That was right, wasn't it, Jo?

Jo Yarker 6:43

Yeah. And also I think one of the things that we often forget is the influence that our outside environment has. So if we're thinking about all of our workers, we have outside pressures from family, friends, people that we care for, but we also have different access to health. So if you're an organization that is working in the Northwest, for example, the population health there is much lower than in other parts of England, for example. So it's natural that your workforce, if they're working in that local area, are going to be experiencing greater health needs as well. So that outside level to me is really important for us as workplace practitioners and as employers to really think about because it has a huge impact on what our workforce needs.

Angela Malik 7:29

It's almost the most practical kind of functional consideration of the framework in a way, the one that no one's really thinking of. Exactly.

Dr Amanda Potter 7:36

What's really interesting about this for me is that we're talking about the whole range of health then. So we're not just talking about people who have got health challenges, it's people who are at work and want to optimise their health as well. So it's anything to do with either being healthy at work or getting back to work, it's that whole spectrum. And then all of the influences both within and outside of the organization that might inhibit and enable that healthy work practice. So it's pretty massive then.

Jo Yarker 8:04

Absolutely. And you know, I wouldn't at all suggest that I'm an expert in any one thing because it is so huge. But also I think there are so many interplays and they're often not recognised. So what we know is many people with a physical condition, whether that be a musculoskeletal challenge, so backache, or even if you've had a sporting accident, you're bringing that into the workplace. Actually, that can be compounded by mental health challenges, so frustration and not being able to do the things that you're used to doing, the pain that you're managing. So there's often a real interplay between our mental and physical health, and to have that big picture allows us to see where there might be gaps in provision, gaps in our approach to tackling and supporting the problem itself.

Angela Malik 8:50

Well, I wondered if we could start with a bit of storytelling and maybe start with some examples, Amanda, of when we've got an organization that is already at the point of intervention, a challenge has come up, they've recognized the need for our help, and you've been asked to come in and help with that challenge. Can you give us an example of an organization that has come to us after things have already started to unravel?

Dr Amanda Potter 9:16

Yes, I can. I'm thinking of one of our clients that's private equity owned. We were invited by the private equity owners to go in and do some work with the exec and the senior leadership team. Now, the exec and the senior leadership team were struggling. It was a very relentless organization, huge targets, very goal-driven, very target-driven. But because of the way in which the then in-place CEO ran the organization, it was very top-down, very micromanaging, created low accountability, low decision making, but fundamentally low health. They had high absenteeism, they had chronic stress, and it was impacting the performance of the organization. So the numbers were going down. So the warning signs were the numbers. It was the performance that was the real worry for them. But when they realized some of the other data that they were looking at around absenteeism and stress levels and the engagement data, they realized there was a whole story going on behind it. And a lot of that came down to leadership. So if I look at the IGLU model, it came down to leadership. So the leaders didn't feel that they had the authority or the accountability or the power to help people, but it also came down to the individuals. The individuals didn't feel like they also had the permission to take time to look after themselves. They had to slog through, they had to push through. And that was prior to this new private equity owner who came in and said, actually, we need to prioritize people. So that was a quick story, and we have been working with them to really turn that story around. So they've invested a huge amount in the development of their top leaders to encourage them to support the rest of the business. And they've been running a whole suite of work around self-compassion and compassionate leadership to enable much more healthy work practices.

Angela Malik 11:04

So you mentioned performance, Amanda. What sort of impact did you see in performance there? Also in sort of retention and the culture of the organization?

Dr Amanda Potter 11:14

Well, the biggest thing was this low accountability. The low accountability meant that people were not prepared to step up. They found it very difficult to make decisions. But if we think about mental health and resilience, what was happening was that the team that I was thinking about are constantly on high alert. So they were always scanning the environment for risk. And they certainly didn't want to put themselves forward and be the person who was accountable for making a decision. They were waiting to be told. Now, there's of course performance impacts for this innovation, problem-solving impacts for this. But actually, what was happening as well is that they weren't taking accountability for their own well-being either. They were just logging through. So they would literally turn up to meetings exhausted or dial into very late meetings without ever challenging because they just didn't feel that they could. So there wasn't any personal ownership or accountability or ability to believe that actually they were in control of their own destiny.

Angela Malik 12:13

And then after working on resilience and psychological safety, what shifted?

Resilience Aha Moments And Team Charters

Dr Amanda Potter 12:19

I think when we explain the model of resilience from a neuroscientific basis, there's such an aha moment from people. So, Jo, you don't know our work probably that much, but we really try to take our concept of psych safety, take our concept of resilience, and really take it back to brain chemistry. And that's where we always get the biggest aha moment, recognizing that the actions that people are taking within the workplace are having such a profound effect on how they feel. So once we put that mirror up for people and we help them realize how their behavior, their habits on a daily basis are actually impacting completely how they feel and then how they take those emotions home, that's always the first point, really. But the key thing was that we created almost a charter and we got agreement from every single person to have some personal actions that they've taken away, but also some team actions too, and they're embedding them, which is great. The other thing is there's been a big shift around of the leadership team as a result of the work, and so that has also kind of refreshed the business and the way in which they're looking at all of this stuff. So it wasn't just us, there's been a whole restructure that's happened off the back of the work.

Angela Malik 13:29

And Jo, listening to that example, what stands out to you?

Jo Yarker 13:33

So I think it's all too common, isn't it? Uh, from the first side is it's certainly something that we see in our research, is that many organizations are in that position where either the lack of knowledge, understanding, the lack of support to change is driving the challenges. But also what we see in in our consultancy organization is exactly that as well. So potentially where problems have been left unchallenged for too long and then they exacerbate, and then they're very, very hard to pivot. And one of the things that is also being very helpful with the IGLI framework is it talks about having responsibility at different levels. So you can see that there is a shared accountability, shared responsibility, and therefore, what is it the leader is responsible for? It's absolutely they need to show up and look after themselves within their own pair groups, but then there are specific behaviours that are relevant for promoting and protecting health. And I think that starting very much at the top to get senior leaders to recognise what it looks like for them and the fact that it looks very different to different people and understanding what those early indicators are as well for themselves, so they can start to spot them in themselves and take action, but also recognize in other people, in their team or in their peer group, can be really powerful because I think often there are so many people that haven't just had that pause to say, what does this really look like for me and what does it feel like? And how do we break that cycle? And just having the space to have that pause and some frameworks or tools to think about how you have conversations about responsibility, around taking action, about pushing back. You mentioned the charter, Amanda, and I'm always amazed whenever we do psychosocial risk assessment surveys and action planning afterwards. In so many organizations, it is the charters that come up thinking how do we reframe around behaviour, the way we talk to each other, the way that we give each other space, the way that we perhaps don't shout things and we have conversations or whatever it might be. They might be really simple changes, but there are often things that if they're in a charter or we scope out those ground rules again, then people feel more able to hold up that as the line that we've all agreed and we're going to try and work to until it becomes embedded in everyday practice.

Manager Behaviours That Protect Health

Dr Amanda Potter 15:51

So interesting, we find the same thing. Could you give us some examples of the behaviour that leaders could or managers could demonstrate to promote health?

Jo Yarker 16:01

Yeah, there's a whole range of different things. So we did some research right back. It's it's nearly our 20, well, it is around about our 20-year anniversary as Affinity Health at Work. And yeah, so it feels bizarre, exciting, and strange for it to be 20 years. But one of the reasons we set up Affinity originally was because we were doing work with the Health and Safety Executive to look at manager behaviour. And we set up a research consortium, which we still have running and thriving. And that work was looking at what are the manager behaviours that are necessary to promote and protect work. And so over the last 20 years, we've done a huge amount of work to understand from an employee perspective, what does it look like when your manager is managing your pressure well? What does it look like when that isn't happening? And likewise, from a manager's perspective, what does that look like? And what outcomes does it predict for those individuals and the organization? And um, the framework itself, there are slight tweaks along the way, but essentially these four broad sets of competencies stem across the research that we've done in different organizations, different sectors, different countries, and one of them being very much around being respectful and responsible. So giving people the space but using appropriate language, being mindful of time, being accountable when problems are raised to make sure that there is that accountability and respect, but also managing and communicating existing and future work. So often for anybody under pressure, and also particularly when people are managing health demands, life demands, being able to manage workload is really key. And we often don't do that very well. And you know, myself included in that, I have to really, really concentrate on thinking about that for both myself and our team. So making sure that we're communicating effectively, looking ahead, making sure that we do that in a participatory way as well, bringing in consultation, talking to the team about what's working, what isn't. And then the third area is around managing the individual within the team. So recognizing we've all got different needs, we all need different things at different times, and perhaps even said and oriented in different ways because of our preferences, because of our situations. And whilst there can be very clear frames of what work entails and what is required from our job, there's always opportunity to manage the individual within the team. And others don't always expect everybody to have exactly the same treatment at all times either. And I think that's a misnomer that we need to crack. And so that managing the individual within the team is key. And then the last area, which is um something that actually has come through more recently with some work we've been doing with NHS Wales, looking at um the role of disciplinary practices and the immense harm that that can cause when it's not managed appropriately, when timelines aren't managed carefully and conversations aren't had early, is this role of managing difficult situations and where the manager can step in, not necessarily always having the skills that are necessary to manage that difficult situation, but knowing that if they don't, they need to get signposting andor help very quickly so that situations don't escalate. So certainly those behaviours are key. And then when somebody is experiencing health challenges andor looking to return to work, there are specific things that managers can do around early conversations about checking to see how work might be adapted in the short term to allow them that opportunity to get back into work and then revisiting on an ongoing basis.

Angela Malik 19:38

Ever wonder what's really driving your team's success or holding it back? With BeTalent Psychometric Tools, you'll get evidence-based insights that transform potential into action. Ready to see what your team is truly capable of? Visit the CPO.co.uk to learn more about our BeTalent Resilience questionnaire and our other tools. If you'd like to take the conversation further, contact me on LinkedIn. That's Angela Malik, M-A-L-I-K.

Dr Amanda Potter 20:05

So much of what you've just said is about clarity, isn't it? It's about understanding your role, understanding your workload, understanding how to deal with difficult situations and circumstances, how to manage yourself. So a lot of what you've said is about clarity. And if you think about what the brain needs and what we would like from life is we want predictability, we want control. So it makes a lot of sense that we feel more resilient, more stable, more included, happier when we feel like we have that clarity. So yeah, it's really helpful.

What People Need To Stay Well

Jo Yarker 20:37

It's an interesting thing. The research really does show as well that consistency of the behavior. It's almost worse to have a manager that is inconsistent. So sometimes they they walk through the door and they're very compassionate and they ask you how your day is, and they worry about certain things around your workload, and then the next day, different person. And you don't know where it comes from. And that inconsistency is much more hard to work with than somebody who is consistently difficult or consistently challenging or consistently neglectful of your needs. So, yes, those behaviours are key, but it's the consistency and predictability that is key.

Angela Malik 21:15

Um, I don't think we covered this yet, Jo, but I'm wondering within your ICLU framework, all of those different elements, are they all on an equal footing or should one be prioritized over another?

Jo Yarker 21:27

I think it's a really good question. And unfortunately we don't have the answers yet. Um, it would be wonderful to be able to see what emphasis do we need to put on. And I think it depends on such a complex mix because if you think about individuals and their resources, we all differ so much. So for some individuals, actually, if you don't have self compassion, if you find it very difficult to be psychologically flexible, if you are quite emotionally sensitive, actually, maybe for you, investing in psychological resources. Is going to be the biggest pivoter because actually those are the foundations that you need to then be able to have conversations with your line manager, with your colleagues that are less reactive perhaps. But for many other situations, you might find that having that group support, we know that so many people are lonely, even those that are in the workplaces and with busy lives, the loneliness epidemic has been really well talked about. So groups are vital and they play a really important role. And likewise, I think the old adage of nobody leaves their job, they leave their manager, and so on. So we can talk about those things that, you know, old adjectives at each different level. And so we know that they each play a really significant role. But I think it depends on the scenario and also your complex balance of other resources as to which one is going to be the biggest pivoter in that situation.

Dr Amanda Potter 22:51

I presume it changes across time as well, if you think about it, at different stages of our lives, each of those things are important to us at different points, aren't they?

Jo Yarker 23:00

Absolutely. And things like health care, perhaps many of us don't really think about that for many years of our youth. And then all of a sudden you're engaging with the NHS in other health systems much more regularly as you get older, and so it becomes more of a part of what influences your ability to work and stay well. And so you're absolutely right. At different phases in life, um, different life experiences, different work experiences, they become more or less important.

Dr Amanda Potter 23:29

Very true. I was thinking about motherhood as well. So there's kind of this peak and trough, isn't there, of need. So, Joe, I was wondering what people need to be healthy at work?

Jo Yarker 23:41

It's a big question. So many things, but I don't think it needs to be particularly complicated. So we would always use two frameworks that kind of underpin a lot of our research, but also underpin a lot of our work with organizations and with individuals. In the workplace, we're looking at our IGLU framework, we need to understand our health and work needs. So we need to understand our preferences, we need to understand how our health impacts our ability to live our everyday lives and show up at work. But we need to understand that we need to be able to voice it, we need to articulate it, have frameworks and ways to describe it. That's one thing. But we also need colleagues that understand and can have those conversations with us. We need line managers that can spot challenges, that they can manage our psychosocial risks, our ways of working and behave in a way that is appropriate for supporting our health. We need our organizations to have policies that are fair, that are consistent, that are easy to understand. Often our organizations don't have policies that can be read above graduate level, and that's such a home goal for organizations because when we're vulnerable, we need to be able to engage in those policies more than ever. And so thinking about are our policies accessible, do they make sense? Are they compassionately and consistently delivered? And then we need to know what those outside resources are. So definitely the oaths. But also we can layer them against a framework of prevention. So good work design, good safe physical workspaces as well. They make a huge difference in preventing ill health and harm. Knowing that we've got opportunities to develop the resources and the knowledge and the skills that we need. So having access to development and then having access to support for when we do need it. So whether that comes in healthcare provision, whether it comes in good absence management practice and support. And what we know is that large organisations, they often have a huge range of these different support services, but they're sometimes a little bit mystical to navigate and people don't know what is available to them. And our small employers don't always provide them. So we need to think about how we support people to access some of that good resource that is available to us.

Dr Amanda Potter 25:51

That's made me think about the state of mind of the individual as well, because when we're fit and healthy and well, we're able to cope with reading policies or asking for help or going and doing some additional training on prevention of ill health. So we're psychologically fit enough and ready enough and we've got enough energy to do so. But it's actually when we need it most, when we're the depleted, suffering, struggling, feeling poorly in whatever way. That's when we need more help but are less likely to ask for it. And I was just thinking about the environment of the organization, because as you were talking, I was thinking the how the environment and the health of the organization must have such a great big impact on whether a person is prepared to ask for help or whether they're not. If you think about psychological safety, for example, if there's trust between the line manager and the individual as a starting point, then they're more likely to say, I'm struggling, I need help. But if there isn't trust, then they may just go absent or they may just hide it, or they may be a passive employee instead, they may take another approach. I wonder what you thought about that, Jo.

Jo Yarker 27:00

Yeah, I think for me it brings up two things is one, absolutely, if there's open relationships, if there are, I suppose, top-down messages that everybody has periods of ill health, everybody has different needs, and we all need to manage them and work within our capacity, capability at that time. So I think you're absolutely right. That individual's ability to have a voice is key there. But I also think that stream of when you are in that position of vulnerability, we actually ask a lot of people in that moment. So we ask them to go online and find the policy. It's really hard to navigate these big systems anyway. That's quite interesting. My son, I'd never seen it before, but he has moments of blind panic. I've known the phrase, but I'd never seen it. And he can be incredibly calm day to day, but blind panic when he's lost his shoes and he's late for the bus or whatever it is. And it's a really interesting reminder of okay, how literally can't find his shoes in front of him. Yeah, and you can't see things. And to me, it's it's almost that visualization of when you are struggling, it's very difficult to navigate these things, and sometimes you just can't see them, even if you're doing your best to look at it. And likewise, it's hard to know how to describe what it is you need. And I think all too often we put the onus on the individual for accessing help without giving people the time within the organization. So managers are very rarely given time to manage, but giving them the time to actually pause and think, okay, how can I have this conversation with the individual? How can I find what it might be that would be useful? How do we actually have these conversations that don't necessarily make people disclose if they don't want to? So we don't have to describe how we're feeding. We could say what impact it has on our job. But if we don't equip people with those skills and that knowledge early before they need it, then it's always going to be something that is a challenge to have.

Dr Amanda Potter 28:55

Yeah, perfect answer because I was really thinking about the loneliness point as well that you made earlier. And we know from research that people who are feeling lonely or feeling excluded, the one thing they need is to reach out and connect. And the one thing they don't, because what the brain tells them to do is they don't. They do the opposite. So I think your point around the line manager being supported to be much more proactive in spotting the signs and offering assistance and understanding what they should and should not be asking and how to ask, I think is absolutely key, rather than us waiting for the individual to come to us and say, I need help.

Jo Yarker 29:32

And I think it also raises something that we see in lots of organisations, whether it's through our research stream or through consultancy, is the interventions or the activities that are put in place to support health and well-being are often to support people to thrive, to optimise, to drive performance. And I think what that really misses is that when people are burnt out or on the verge of burnout, when they are experiencing real challenges, actually what you just want to do is survive the day. You just want to be able to get to work, not get fired and get home. And so I think we really need to-yeah, exactly, and not feel that you've exposed yourself in a way that you didn't want to in terms of your emotions or in terms of behaviour. And I think we really forget that that safe element is really key. And when people are unwell, sometimes safe is the benchmark that we need to think about rather than optimal and thriving. And so having a more nuanced understanding of what that dimension looks like can be really helpful. And often we don't know what that looks like. If we don't know somebody that's really struggled with their physical or mental health, it's really hard to think, you know, actually, I can't walk down the road because either getting out of the house is too overwhelming or I get so exhausted that I need to sit down and there's nowhere to sit. And those sorts of things aren't often the conversations that we have in a workplace. And so it can be really hard to remember that actually for some people, this is part of navigating a fluctuating health condition or rehabilitation, and they can still work, but we need to work in a different way.

Business Pressure And Health As An Outcome

Angela Malik 31:10

I think it's also um if you haven't experienced that before, but you are experiencing it now. Sometimes you don't even have the vocabulary or the sort of awareness to see that's what that is when it's happening to you. As you said, it's sometimes it's really hard to describe what kind of help or support you need because you can't even sort of articulate what's happening in your world in that moment. I wonder if I could ask both of you a question that's been rolling around in my brain this whole time, where we've been talking about the role of the individual, the group, the leadership, the organization. And one of the things that often comes up is this question of how can leaders balance all of those different considerations while also addressing their own needs and supporting their own resilience, because often they find they haven't got the training in place, they're being expected to support all of these other elements underneath them, and they themselves are burning out or not equipped. I feel like that's a good question, kind of for both of you from both sides of the spectrum. Jo, if you want to go first and then Amanda.

Jo Yarker 32:20

Yeah, I think one of the things that we don't talk about enough is um business viability and the extent that that's brought into research questions, it's we it's often not. We don't look at financial performance of businesses, we don't look at distribution of resources or how our senior leadership set priorities and so on. And I'm sure this feeds very much into the consultancy work that you do, Amanda, as well. But certainly when we look at either the lack of provision in the resources that are put in or the pressures that are put on people, sometimes it absolutely is a case of we can redesign work. We just haven't paused to redesign work or we don't have the frameworks and tools to develop the behaviour and to change work. But sometimes it's not a viable financial model and the pressures that are being cascaded are just too much for any individuals, regardless of whether it's those individuals. And I think that's something that's really missing from the conversations that we have in research, but also the conversations that we have when we are often working downstream in terms of the clients that we have in consultancy. So it's very rare that health conversations are had at board level, really. They might be had, but they're not had in the context of these decisions are impacting and where are we going to place our emphasis?

Dr Amanda Potter 33:42

I think that's really interesting. The words that were going through my head as you were talking, then, Jo, were willful blindness. If we think about the concept of willful blindness, that we are not prepared to see what actually is happening right in front of our noses. And I do believe that organizations that push so hard around numbers year on year, always trying to drive greater growth, increase profitability, and do it through quite robust and challenging ways, where it's usually down to people taking on more and more and more. What happens is we see that relentlessness of organizations. Now, what we do talk about a lot, Jo, with the clients that we're working with is the concept of functional stupidity, where we encourage them to remove processes and simplify processes that are no longer working and simplify tasks and you know, check that each of the tasks that people are actually completing are actually adding value, that they're making a difference so that people invest their time appropriately rather than just doing more and more and more of work that's not actually adding any value. But it does take somebody quite courageous to listen to that. To talk about an organization being willfully blind or being functionally stupid is quite a lot for people to take on board. But that's the reality. When organizations are driving so hard and pushing so hard, they're running. And like you say, Jo, they're not there for looking around and taking stock of what's actually happening around them. And it can be felt very keenly at the individual level, but it's not necessarily observed and witnessed quite so well when you get to the very senior levels. So I can totally see why this happens, but I don't think maybe it's because the role I'm in, I don't hear enough about the health of the employee at the levels we're we've been talking to.

Jo Yarker 35:30

And I think that that really links one of the things that um I hear about a lot in my research world is how we need to make work a health outcome so that if you're a GP, you're thinking about can this person walk? Are they going to be pain-free? Are they going to be able to work? And that's a conversation that has been going on for a long time in the health sector, health research sector particularly. But also when we look in the workplace, and I've supervised lots of doctorate studies, I've taught on MSc programs in this space, and very rarely when we're thinking about onboarding programs, when we're thinking about recruitment, when we're thinking about leadership programs, do we actually think about sustainable health of the team, of the employees? And so I think actually what we need to also take responsibility for is in that workplace design and all of our training programs that we run for HR professionals, for occupational psychologists and others, is are we making health a work outcome or are we just talking about performance? Because actually we need to be talking about health as well. And I think that's been a real miss. And I'm a bit crossed that I hadn't realized that sooner because we could have had 20 years of master's programs where that was on a slide somewhere and maybe made a little bit of difference. But it definitely needs to be rebalanced.

Dr Amanda Potter 36:48

That's such a good challenge. I think that's almost the most important statement of the pod, actually. We talk all the time about profitability, about growth, about innovation, about customer success, but we don't talk about employee health enough as a driver for success. Rarely is that one of the outcomes that we're talking about with clients. We talk about how we can make sure that people are resilient enough, that we focus on the well-being of employees in order to drive performance, in order to drive success of the organization. Health is not the outcome. So I think that for me is the aha moment of today. So thank you, Jo.

Examples That Work And Practical Toolkits

Angela Malik 37:28

So Jo, can you share any examples of organizations that are getting this right?

Jo Yarker 37:33

So I think in the same way that there are many organizations that are getting aspects absolutely right. And um, it's really exciting to see. I think one of the things that we have seen, say for example, I mentioned NHS Wales earlier, and they have been doing some great work looking at how do we reframe our disciplinary policy? Because that actually influences a lot of different behaviours within the workplace, and also how do we help people who are going through a disciplinary process in a compassionate way? And how do we train and support our HR communities and those that are managing the process or witnessing the process to process some of the emotion that might go on with that and also still have conversations in a compassionate and fair way. And so I think that's a really tangible example of where something is being done to address a real challenge, but also could feed learnings outside. And I think that's what I love about the work that they're doing is it really being shared and they're talking about what is working, what they found difficult, what challenges they had, and how they're addressing those. We also were working with several organisations to look at doing manager training differently, and that manager training being not just about raising awareness, but really thinking about how we upskill managers to understand about psychosocial risk and what that might look like in terms of changing the way that we design and manage work, what it might mean in terms of their own behaviour and what those behaviours are that can protect and promote risk. And then we're also working with organizations to review the whole provision. So we've worked with NHS organizations, so Hampshire and Isle of Wight, NHS Foundation Trust, we've looked across their different provisions to say, well, where are the gaps and how can we start to build on those gaps? Because every organization has lots of great things in place, but always some gaps or duplication. I think that's also what we see a lot of is people be investing in different activities to support health and well-being, but they might be all actually targeting the same level of control or the same hazard. And so thinking about how do you get this really clear holistic system. So that is something that many organizations are starting to do. And Society of Occupational Medicine has been supporting us in developing guidance for organizations if you can't afford to have consultants to come in and look at what that looks like. The guidance kind of gives you a step of, okay, these are some of the key principles. If I'm putting in place a programme, what do I need to think about and how can we design it in a way that really supports but also protects from the outset? So, what's the biggest success you've had, would you say? Biggest success. They come in different layers. I think incredibly proud that a lot of our frameworks have kind of made their way into guidance for HR professionals through CIPD, for example, or through to occupational health professionals through Society of Occupational Medicine and others. And that's certainly a great success. I think also on another level, we work with lots of different organisations, but there are also organisations that we don't work with that I hear are using our work. So I had a conversation with somebody from the International Red Cross, and they're using the ICLU framework to map how people are supported post-traumatic event. And so they're looking at not only the psychological services that they're offered, but also how the whole organization responds to the individual, from their peers, to the leader, and um the organisational policies that are put in place. So that certainly stands. And then I suppose from a third area, now I couldn't think of anything, and now I can think of too many. But we developed a return to work toolkit that takes people through the journey from absence to sustaining work. We've got some great data to show that people are using it and they are more likely to return sustainably. When they do, they might take longer, but they're more likely to stay in work. But the thing that really stands out to me was somebody saying in one of our evaluation interviews, you know, I made different decisions. I would have left work, but I used these materials and I really made different decisions around what I would ask for, how would I have that conversation with my manager? And now I'm back in work and I'm working part-time, which I never thought I could do, but I am and I'm really enjoying work and I'm well, and I wouldn't have done that otherwise. And so I think that's the biggest success really.

Dr Amanda Potter 42:00

What a result. That feels very tangible. And can the public access that, Jo? Can our listeners access that?

Jo Yarker 42:07

So some of those things. So we have so many reports and frameworks, and some of the slimmed down versions of our toolkits are free to access on our website. So we've got a big library and also a tools place. They're all free to access. And then we have a couple of different tools that are either paid for services or they're part of research programmes. So love hearing from people who want to get involved in research as well. And what's the website? Just so that we've included it. So it's affinityhealth at work.com. Perfect.

Angela Malik 42:37

As this conversation comes to a close, I have a question for both of you. We'll start with you, Jo. In one sentence, what is the single most important thing organizations should prioritize if they want to protect the health of their employees?

Jo Yarker 42:52

I think it is stop trying to fix the individual and make them stronger or more resilient. It's fix a system and look in that system to see how it can be designed to create an environment that's supportive.

Dr Amanda Potter 43:07

I love your answer. And I probably having listened to you, but this is not come from personal experience, it's come from listening to you because this isn't where we are experts, hence us inviting you in as the expert, Jo. It sounds to me our investment in the manager, the line manager, sounds to me like a really big piece as well. So giving them the tools to ask questions, to listen, to observe and watch, see the signs, and to recognize the importance of helping and supporting people who may need that additional support to either stay in work or come back to work. For me, the manager sounds like another area of priority. I agree.

One-Line Priorities And How To Connect

Angela Malik 43:45

And I think from my own takeaway, having listened to this conversation today, one really important aspect is thinking about support, but thinking about it really holistically, thinking about having access to support, knowing it's There and where it is, and feeling safe to access that. And Jo's answer around change the system, not the individual, reminded me of a conversation that I had with Alice White around neurodivergence and managing difficult situations with that lens in mind. And her answer was the same. It was around look at the system first and see if there's ways to adapt there before you start trying to change the individual. Thank you so much, both of you, for a great conversation. It's been such a pleasure. And of course, we'd love to hear from our listeners, don't we, Amanda? So if our listeners found this episode on designing for prevention thought-provoking, connect with us on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. Search for Dr. Amanda Potter or Angela Malik at BeTalent by Zircon and Jo Yarker, either on LinkedIn or at affinityhealth at work.com.

Dr Amanda Potter 44:55

Well, thank you all so much. Thank you, Jo, and thank you everyone who listens to our podcast. I love that every now and then I speak to a client who surprises me and tells me that they've been listening and I didn't even know that they were subscribers. That's very cool. So thank you, everybody. I hope you have a happy and successful day.