The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep86 From Tragedy to Resilience: How Forgiveness Shaped Martyn's Law

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol • Season 4 • Episode 86

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Resilience emerges from the most unthinkable circumstances in this powerful conversation with Figen Murray OBE, whose son Martyn was killed in the 2017 Manchester Arena bombing. What follows is an extraordinary story of transformation through grief, forgiveness, and purpose-driven advocacy.

Figen shares the raw reality of how her life changed in "the split second it took for a suicide bomber to detonate a bomb" - not just losing her son, but also her identity as a psychotherapist. With disarming honesty, she describes her initial "zombie-like state" and the profound shift in her worldview that made it impossible to continue her therapeutic practice.

The conversation takes a remarkable turn when Figen reveals her decision to publicly forgive the bomber just weeks after the attack. Despite facing intense criticism and online trolling, this act of forgiveness "cleansed my heart and soul" and aligned with her core values. Her powerful insight that "a sour mind creates a sour body" illuminates the physical and emotional toll of carrying hatred.

What truly distinguishes Figen's journey is how personal tragedy transformed into a legislative mission. After discovering alarming security gaps at venues 18 months post-attack, she launched a six-and-a-half-year campaign that culminated in Martin's Law - now requiring mandatory security measures at venues hosting 200+ people across the UK. Through governmental changes, pandemic disruptions, and political opposition, Figen found that "every knockback made me even more resilient, more determined and stronger."

Perhaps most moving is Figen's work with young people, having spoken to over 32,000 students about online dangers and the importance of values like kindness and compassion. When asked what motivates her tireless advocacy, her answer is heartbreakingly simple: "Having my son's ashes on a bookshelf at home is a really good motivator."

This conversation offers profound insights into human resilience, the healing power of purpose, and how even the darkest tragedy can catalyze positive change when approached with courage and compassion. Join us for this deeply moving exploration of how one woman's grief became a gift of safety for millions.

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Kristian Lees Bell:

Welcome to the Chief Psychology Officer podcast, the show where we dive deep into the psychology behind leadership, business and success. I'm Christian and today we're joined by Fegan Murray, OBE, an initiator at Martin's Law and counter-terrorism expert, and our very own Chief Psychology Officer, Dr Amanda Potter, and our topic today is resilience and change through extreme adversity and personal trauma. Welcome Amanda, Welcome Fegan.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Thank you, Christian.

Kristian Lees Bell:

Hi Hello, great to have you on the podcast today. In this episode, you'll hear about Fegan's story and what she and what we can learn from the last eight years since the death of her son in the Manchester bombing at the Ariane de Grande concert. The Manchester Arena bombing, or Manchester Arena attack, was an Islamic terrorist suicide bombing of Manchester Arena in Manchester, england, on the 22nd of May 2017, following a concert by the American pop singer Ariane de Grande. Following a concert by the American pop singer Ariana.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Grande and Fegan. I was very kindly introduced to you by a wonderful friend of mine, lou, who said to me you really need to speak to Fegan because she's got the most incredible story. I, of course, then went straight onto LinkedIn and looked at you and I was like, oh, I'm not sure I knew you, and when I read about you I didn't realise the extent to your story. So I think you've been incredibly humble in your LinkedIn profile and the impact you've made. So thank you so much for being a guest, because sharing your story and sharing your incredible strength that has come from adversity, I think is incredibly inspiring. So thank you.

Kristian Lees Bell:

Fegan, could you share a little about who you are, please?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Well, I'm a mother of five, married for a long time and was a really bog standard person doing her job as a psychotherapist and life coach and clinical supervisor, and we had a busy life, obviously with all those kids. And 22nd of May all of that changed. Everything just changed within literally the split second it took for a suicide bomber to detonate a bomb at the Manchester Arena attack where Martin, one of my children, sadly died, and that was the moment everything, as I said, changed for us and that was also my last working day in my job. I could no longer ethically justify continuing my job as a therapist because it just instantly changed me and my perspective on life.

Fegan Murray OBE:

And yeah, and then the journey took me through all twists and turns. First of all, the first year nothing happened because I was heavily grieving, I was very much in a zombie-like state. But 18 months after that, for the very first time, went socially into Manchester to attend a concert of a young singer that my husband likes and, to my horror, we got there to the concert. There was no bug search, no security, there was nothing. They didn't even check our entrance tickets. And that was the start of my journey with the legislation I worked so hard on for the past six and a half years.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So interesting that you say that the day that happened you could no longer be a therapist. You say that the day that happened you could no longer be a therapist.

Fegan Murray OBE:

Why was that? Because as a therapist, I think I need to give every single person who walks through my door the same level of kindness, understanding, empathy, compassion and the same chance to work with them. But since Martin's death, in that very instant, my life perspective completely changed. In that instant and I now could still, to be honest, work with people with major issues like child abuse, rape, domestic violence, anything like that I can easily work with. But if somebody now came to me and said my boyfriend's cheating on me or I blush when I do presentations at work, can you help me? Normally that would have absolutely been no issue. Now, somewhere in the corner of my mind, even if it's 0.5%, I would be thinking get a new boyfriend or change jobs where you don't need to present. Stop miserly me about that tiny issue. And if that is even there, 0.5%, it simply is not ethical for me to continue the job because I wouldn't be fair on that person.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So that intolerance if I use that word, if you don't mind did you find that intolerance was also for yourself? Were you kind to yourself during those 12 to 18 months after the attack?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Well, the first 12 months I couldn't even function, to be honest. I burnt all my kitchen pans. I had to have a new set. My brain was just not functioning, to tell you the truth, I couldn't retain any information. I was literally just in a I wouldn't say catatonic, but in a zombie-like state. I was merely existing from day to day. But after that, obviously I try, because obviously I need to still function as a mother, as a grandmother, as a wife and all the other roles I play. So I slowly sort of emerged from that state and was functioning a bit more emotionally, because the first 12 months, while I was cooking, washing, cleaning, I wasn't really there in my head.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So what was the shift for you then, Figen? Because there was an incredible shift.

Fegan Murray OBE:

Yes. So when we sat at that concert because I remember getting ready earlier that evening to go into Manchester because we live in the outskirts and I changed my normal handbag to the tiniest one I had because all I needed was tissues and my phone and I thought that'll make the bag search easy because I fully, naively, stupidly, expected that 18 months after Manchester Arena happened, that 18 months after Manchester Arena happened, in particular in Manchester, where the attack happened, when we went to a concert there, albeit it was much smaller, I thought security is going to be totally top-notch in Manchester and I was so shocked and devastated when nobody even checked our tickets, never mind anything else, and I sat in the concert. It was a concert of a singer that my husband likes more than I do, but I was sat absolutely breaking my heart. I was had tears running down my face and my husband, with a big grin, whispered it's the songs, isn't it? And I whispered back saying I'm not even listening to the stupid songs. And he looked really confused and he said well, why are you crying then? And I said because nobody checked my bag. I was so sad that 18 months after, 22 people, a lot of them children my son was 29, but a lot of them were much younger.

Fegan Murray OBE:

After such a short time, what happened in Manchester? How could there be no security such a short time? What happened in Manchester? How could there be no security? I was so shocked that it was. It seemed business as usual and nobody seemed to care about security. It shocked me, it devastated me, and that was in first week, december that year, 2018, and then I did a bit of research.

Fegan Murray OBE:

I was then certainly not a counter-terror expert. I was totally naive to terrorism. I knew nothing about it, but I became curious about security at venues and I started researching during December and came across the government's counterterrorism strategy document called Contest, and in there it says security at venues is optional. Nobody has to keep you safe. Anybody can choose whether they put on security or not, and I found that absolutely unacceptable. Do you know what? Nobody, especially just takes that one person to say I'm not having this, and that's literally what I did. I read that and it wouldn't let me go over Christmas and New Year and in January it was like bouncing off the walls. That phrase it's recommendation only, and I decided to do an online petition for getting legislation in to make security at venues a mandatory requirement.

Dr Amanda Potter:

When we spoke, you talked about the role of forgiveness and how important it was for you to forgive to get to the next stage. Would you mind just sharing that story?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Yes, so obviously when Martin died the house was like Piccadilly Circus. It was so busy. We had police, relatives, families, friends. There was so much activity. But about three and a half weeks after Martin died the children went back to school and uni and college. My husband went back to work. My family had left. The police had stopped coming.

Fegan Murray OBE:

I remember it was that one morning when I was for the first time I was all on my own and I went and thought I'll do something normal today. I tried to anyway. I went and bought a newspaper, opened it up, made myself a coffee and on the front page was a picture of five men linking arms and a man on the floor and I thought, oh, that's strange, what is that? And because we didn't have the news on all this time, because I didn't want my children to hear anything about the attack and get more upset, so I wasn't really too much in the know of what's been happening. But that picture was basically an imam and five people from Finsbury Mosque in London forming a human chain around a guy called Darren Osborne who had hired a van in Wales because he was radicalized online in a chat room and he went to try and kill Muslims who came out of prayer that day and he killed one man, injured several, but then, as he was driving off, he hit a wall and couldn't continue driving. He jumped out of the car to try and run away, fell on the floor and of course the people from the mosque were chasing him and the imam and these four other guys just instantly, in all that chaos and confusion, linked arms to protect the guy and the imam said to the crowd you're not to touch him, the police will deal with him, he's under our protection. And that picture sort of really had a massive impact all day that day. But it also reminded me of a photo of a front page on day three after the attack where for the first time, I saw the bomber who killed Martin. It was Salman Abedi. He was only 22 years old.

Fegan Murray OBE:

That day I thought of nothing but that newspaper clip with Salman Abedi's face and how innocent and gormless and sort of unassuming he looked, and this picture of the imam and these guys. By the end of that day, when my husband came home, I had already phoned the BBC to ask if I can publicly, on national TV, forgive the terrorists. Because I looked, I thought all day and I looked at the bigger picture and thought well, when Salman al-Baid was a newborn baby, he wasn't born a terrorist, he was innocent, and somebody along his life poisoned his mind and therefore that was easy for me to forgive. And that was actually also augmented by the photo of the imam and how, in that moment of chaos and sheer terror, the imam and these four men somehow found the strength and courage to do what's humanely the right thing to do.

Fegan Murray OBE:

My values are really important to me and forgiveness is part of my value base. And that picture with the imam had such a massive impact on me that I felt really compelled to forgive Salman Abedi. And that's what I did. And I did it, to be honest, also because I still needed to function as a mum, as a wife, as a grandmother, etc. All the other roles at play. I also felt I had become aware I think the police mentioned that Islamophobia had risen by 300% in Manchester. I also thought that day well, if I can go on national TV as the mother of somebody who was killed by a terrorist, maybe in Manchester, that'll break the cycle of hate a little bit. So these are all reasons I forgave, but also I am so glad I did because I never allowed anger and hate to hijack my soul and my heart.

Dr Amanda Potter:

You said the most amazing quote to me, which was a sour mind makes a sour body and the impact of hate. If we carry that with us.

Fegan Murray OBE:

Absolutely so. I do read a lot of textbooks and in one of the textbooks of one of my favorite authors, Andrew Matthews, he said in that one chapter on forgiveness and I always remember that sentence a sour mind creates a sour body. And I really do feel that that is true, because the mind and body are so closely connected, and it literally freed me from not being so affected simply by forgiving. I am so glad I was able to do it. And what was the reaction? Not a good one. My, my husband was a bit confused. He said you can't do that. And I said I am. And he said that's mad, it's crazy. And I said I have to do it. And it's months later, when I went on a school talk, that he was there and he heard me speak for the first time about forgiveness to the children that he understood. And he said to me on the way home yeah, it makes sense. Now I understand why you did it.

Fegan Murray OBE:

I got really badly trolled online after I did it. People wrote into BBC saying I am mad. They went on my Twitter account. They called me stupid and crazy and irresponsible terrorist sympathiser. I got all sorts of comments that weren't very nice, but, as I said, I have no regrets at all about doing it. It was definitely the right thing to do and totally in line with my value base.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So, figen, what was the impact of that process of forgiveness for you?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Well, it cleansed my heart and my soul, to be honest. I didn't have to feel that bitterness and that anger. It never, ever went into my soul. It completely freed me to function as a mum, as a wife, as a grandmother and all the other roles I play in my life, and I don't mind that people called me crazy for doing it. I know in my heart it was the right thing to do and it's very much part of my value base.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Talk us through the steps you took as a result, because you started the petition. That was the first step, isn't it?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Yes, I did and my petition was a bit tricky. So I went down the government petition route rather than the changeorg route, which would have probably got me more signatures. But I wanted the government on board right from the words go and that's why I went that route. And government petitions only last six months and then they automatically stop. And halfway through my petition, two other petitions only last six months and then they automatically stop. And halfway through my petition two other petitions emerged and they overtook my petition by the hundreds of thousands of signatures in two, three weeks, nevermind six months. Mine at the end of six months had 23,500 signatures. And these other two petitions one was bring back the Jeremy Kyle show and the other one was bring back plastic straws for McDonald's they had two, three hundred thousand signatures, as I said, in a very short space of time.

Fegan Murray OBE:

But one of the positive things that happened during the campaign is that somebody called Brendan Cox phoned me. He's the leader of Joe Cox MP. He said I've seen your petition. I think it's the right thing to do. I have really good contacts in government. I want to sit you in front of a minister, the security minister, would you like that? And I said, of course, yes, please. And he said but before we do that, I need to get you to meet the person who would eventually do the white paper, because we can't really sit in front of a minister without a white paper about what you want. So I went to see Nick Oldworth, my other co-campaigner, and then, eventually, the three of us sat in front of the first out-of-aid security ministers in September 2019. And that's when the Home Office started the whole process of Martin's Law.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So what have you now managed to influence? What has been the impact of all of that?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Well, it was six and a half years nonstop campaigning. It was initially an online campaign but it very quickly, within three, four months, turned into a full time job. I have given over 800, 900 talks about Martin's Law both in the UK and abroad, either on my own or with Nick Oldworth, and I've been having many dozens and dozens of meetings with different ministers, prime ministers, home secretaries, face-to-face and also via Teams during COVID. Those meetings continued face-to-face and also via teams during COVID. Those meetings continued. We worked very closely with the Home Office to get the legislation just right, and it took many twists and turns, but on 3rd of April this year it got Royal Assent, which means it's now become an official Act of Parliament.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Well, that's incredible, and I'm sure it wasn't an easy path. What were the stumbling blocks along the way?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Oh goodness, there were so many stumbling blocks. First of all, covid, which slowed it down a bit, and also the constant changes in government, the constant changes of ministers. They were all setbacks. We had people who didn't like the bill, politicians who didn't like the bill we had, even during the last few stages in December, and then January, february and March this year. We had in both houses.

Fegan Murray OBE:

So my husband and I attended every single session of the debate in both houses, and in the House of Commons one of the ministers said we should not feel sorry for people who lost loved ones and churn out legislation unnecessarily. In the House of Lords, a baroness stood up and said that I was a fierce campaigner and we should step back and not churn out legislation just because we feel sorry for victims, and I felt both comments were quite hurtful, but actually it was good because it made me realise that you know if you want something really, really badly, it's never going to be straightforward. This is a big thing. This is an act of Parliament. It's going to be a legislation. Once it becomes active after the implementation period, it's on a par of GDPR and health and safety. The impact is going to be great. So, of course it's not going to be straightforward. So what?

Dr Amanda Potter:

will change for Christian and I and for our families. What will change?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Well, thousands of lives will be saved through the legislation because at the moment, venues still do not have to do anything. Until the implementation period is over. A lot of venues start preparing. But basically, martin's Law means that any venue that holds 200 people and above up to 799 people have to put measures in place to know how to lock down a building, how to evacuate if you can't get out of the building, how to evacuate if you need to get out and how to communicate. So staff need to know how to do those four things in case of danger outside or inside the building.

Fegan Murray OBE:

And then, obviously, in the bigger venues any venue 800 people plus they have to put measures in place that would stop or prevent a terrorist attack from happening in the first place. So they need to do all the other things that I just mentioned. In addition to that, they need to check how to maybe improve their access control, they need to update their CCTV systems, they need to train their staff. Obviously, some people will have to know life-saving first aid skills. There's lots and lots of menus also that this will apply to. So once the legislation comes in, hospitals, schools, doctor surgeries, museums, libraries, restaurants, sports venues, music arenas, places of worship. They all have to do martin's law. They all have to keep you safe by law it's amazing.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And now you're on the speaker circuit, so as an after dinner speaker, as a keynote, which is amazing and in fact I want to introduce you to some people I know who are organizers of conferences, so I'd love you to be a keynote at a couple of conferences that I speak at. You're speaking a lot about resilience now, so what's the message in your keynote speaking or your after dinner speaking?

Fegan Murray OBE:

I think the message for me is I never would have thought that I can do what I do. I honestly expected when Martin died that I'm just going to crumble and disintegrate, but I didn't. What it taught me is that, no matter how bad life gets, you can survive awful things. You can survive the worst thing ever. It doesn't get much worse than losing your child under very horrific circumstances. And the skills I used. I had to dig deep but I just realized that other people may really benefit from applying those, really benefit from applying those. I didn't know I had half of these skills, but I just dug deep and it kept me alive. It kept me with my head above water and it kept me strong and more determined.

Fegan Murray OBE:

Even the knockbacks they hurt. Of course, when you have a knockback, when you have ministers and baronesses challenge the legislation, saying that I don't need pity Of course I don't need pity, but I felt very much that it hurt and when things hurt you need to go away and lick your wounds. That is so important and that's what I did. Those comments hurt and I went home and I did sulk. I felt pathetic. I felt sorry for myself and all of that was really necessary and the key was not to stay there too long and to get too comfortable. And I got up, dusted myself off and became even more determined. Every time I had a knockback, I thought no, you're not doing this to me, I am stronger than that. I am not backing down. And every knockback made me even more resilient, more determined and stronger.

Dr Amanda Potter:

You have been so brave and you push so hard. Do you think the psychotherapy training helped you at all? Oh, totally.

Fegan Murray OBE:

Do you know what? I'm not religious at all, but I do feel that the universe made me train three decades or so ago, not to just help other people but to actually help me survive what happened to me, and it really equipped me with those skills of looking at the bigger picture. That helicopter skill was so important, it literally saved me from going crazy but also the ability to have compassion and empathy that I may not have had without my training, as naturally that's helped me understand and also have this may sound odd have compassion with Salman Abadi, the baby, the child that was born into a horrible family because his father radicalised him. It made me able to forgive and I think without that training I honestly would have disintegrated. I am so grateful I did it.

Dr Amanda Potter:

It's a really powerful reminder that the strength that we can find in the worst of times and the true altruism and forgiveness over the last eight years is just. It's truly humbling. Actually, it's just amazing what you found within yourself and the difference you've made for millions of people not just thousands, but millions of people so that we feel safe when we go to these big events and our children, importantly, are safe as well. So, thank you. You mentioned also, fegan, that there were some really good people along the way with the journey that you've been on.

Fegan Murray OBE:

Oh goodness, yeah, I mean, people have been just so kind. Obviously I had criticisms, don't get me wrong. People moaned about me making Martin's Law, closing down village halls and ripping out the heart of every village, which is absolutely ill-informed that that's not the case. People have been so kind in helping me with when I did my last bit of the protest march from Manchester to London as a final sort of push to make the government hurry up with the legislation, because it took so long, and I did walk from Manchester Arena the 200 miles to number 10 to put pressure on number 10. And it worked. And so many people joined, just turned up at 930 every morning and walked with us and donated money to go and have a pedicure after the walk. You know stuff like that it's like.

Fegan Murray OBE:

And people were kind to give me and my co-campaigners the platform to even talk about Martin's Law, because, as I said earlier, did over eight, nine hundred talks, not just in the UK but abroad, because there's a lot of international interest. But without those platforms our voice would not have been heard. The media have been incredibly kind. They have supported the campaign in many, many different ways, be that reports in the newspaper having me on the red sofa at BBC. I've been on Sky and I've been on all the channels really, but they have all been so incredibly supportive. So without all of that joint effort, I think my voice would have not been enough. So I'm ever so grateful.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And Keir Starmer asked you what motivated you. What did you say?

Fegan Murray OBE:

Yeah. So I bumped into Keir Starmer. He was introduced to me about a year before he got elected at a newspaper headquarters and I thought, oh, here we go again. I need to explain who I am and what I do. But as soon as he heard my name, as I was being introduced to him, he said oh, I know who you are. You're Martin's Law, I'm a father. And he said you lost your child. How do you stay resilient? How do you stay so strong? What motivates you? And I looked at him and I said well, having my son's ashes on a bookshelf at home is a really good motivator. And I think his eyes filled up a bit and he just patted my shoulder and couldn't say much. He walked off with a smile, you know. But that's my reality and one of the reasons I work so hard on this legislation is I don't wish this on anybody else. Nobody should have their loved one's ashes on a shelf at home.

Dr Amanda Potter:

They should have their loved one in their life for making us aware of Martin's Law and for everything you've done to change the way we look at security and safety of people in these big events. So thank you so much. It's been fantastic, hasn't it? Christian.

Kristian Lees Bell:

It really has. Yeah, and I loved reading and obviously listening today about your story Read that you also deliver books to school children, which I thought was wonderful, and school assemblies. So I mean I was wondering how daunting that was the first time you did it, because I'm sure you've become a dab hand now at speaking to all groups of people.

Fegan Murray OBE:

Funny enough, there's the advert for this school in Yorkshire that is coming back and doing another documentary series. That was actually the first school I ever talked at, but up to now I have spoken to about 32,000 young people and continuing. Obviously because I think it's really important for young people to understand the dangers online, but also that they really understand and reconnect with values, because that is what we have lost in the world and in society and I want to reintroduce young people to kindness and tolerance and empathy and compassion. That's amazing.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Thank you so much. Thank you for being our guest, Thank you for having me on your show.

Kristian Lees Bell:

It's been a pleasure. And that brings the episode to an end. Thank you, amanda. Thank you to our listeners. Thank you, fegan, and if you like what you heard, then please feel free to give us rating. You, amanda, um? Thank you to our listeners. Thank you, fegan, and if you'd like what you heard, then please feel free to give us rating. Let us know what you enjoyed about this podcast so that more people can tune in to discover the insights and the knowledge that we've shared today thank you fegan, thank you christian and thank you to everyone who's listening.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I really appreciate it and I hope everyone has a thoughtful, kind and successful day.

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