The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep81 Unlocking Team Potential in IG Group

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol • Season 4 • Episode 81

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What if everything you thought you knew about identifying potential in your team was based on flawed assumptions? 

In this thought-provoking conversation with Adam Wheelwright, Chief Technology Officer at IG Group, we challenge conventional wisdom around talent assessment and high-performance cultures. Drawing from his 30 years of experience in financial services and technology leadership, Adam reveals why the search for simplistic models of potential fundamentally misunderstands human capability.

"Just because somebody's been rated as high potential at some stage in their career, that's not a forever thing," Adam explains as we explore how potential isn't static but constantly evolving based on changing circumstances, individual aspirations, and organizational needs. This dynamic nature demands a more nuanced approach beyond traditional nine-box grids and assessment frameworks.

The conversation takes an unexpected turn when we discuss how the relationship between employers and employees has fundamentally shifted. "Employment needs to be thought of a bit more like dating," Adam suggests, highlighting that unless both parties find fulfillment and alignment, neither will achieve optimal results. This perspective challenges organizations to move beyond simply assessing what they want from individuals to creating genuine two-way conversations about mutual aspirations.

Perhaps most provocatively, Adam argues that organizations can't outsource talent development to HR or external consultants. "As a business leader, you need to be very present and front and center in defining what is high performance in your particular context," he asserts, making a compelling case for leadership ownership of talent strategy.

Whether you're building teams, developing talent strategies, or rethinking your own career trajectory, this episode offers fresh perspectives that will transform how you think about potential and performance. Listen now to discover why the future of work demands a fundamental rethink of how we identify, develop, and unleash human capability.

Subscribe now and join the conversation about what truly drives exceptional performance in today's rapidly evolving workplace.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

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For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform please contact: TheCPO@zircon-mc.co.uk

Caitlin Cooper:

Hello and welcome back to the Chief Psychology Officer podcast. I'm Caitlin, senior Consultant and Business Psychologist at Zircon BeTalent, and, as always, I'm joined by Dr Amanda Potter, chartered Psychologist and CEO at Zircon. Today, we're diving into the art of building a high performance team environment, and we're thrilled to be joined by a special guest who knows all about it Adam Wheelwright, Chief Technology Officer at IG Group. Adam brings a wealth of experience in driving innovation and fostering collaboration, and so we have the pleasure today of him sharing his experience and perspectives with us. Welcome both of you.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Thank you, Caitlin, thank you.

Caitlin Cooper:

Adam, welcome. Could you please start just by sharing with the listeners a bit about who you are and what it is you do at IG Group.

Adam Wheelwright:

Yeah, thanks very much for having me on the podcast is the first thing to say. And then in terms of a very brief intro for me, I've been working in sort of I guess financial services in the main part, largely in technology roles, for about 30 years. I had a little brief swadjourn during the pandemic, running technology for Test and Trace and latterly UK Health Security Agency. My background is largely in sort of trading based businesses, initially a lot on the institutional side, so large investment banks, but then latterly have started to move more towards the consumer facing part of trading. And that's kind of what I do here at IG. We are trying to become the preferred platforms both for technology but also the education and the content for anybody anywhere that wants to benefit from capital markets and do that in a safe, engaging kind of way, and I build the technology that enables all of that.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Amazing, which is why you're able to get into Riverside today to do this podcast quite so quickly. I think you beat us, which is a first. Yeah, thank you and welcome. How lovely to have you on the pod.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, Adam, could you also maybe share with us a bit about what are you passionate about?

Adam Wheelwright:

It's a really good question and in preparation for this, I've been thinking quite a lot about it and I guess there's a short answer and a long answer. The short answer is as simple as I like making things better, which kind of sounds a little bit trite, but it is a fundamental motivation of mine. I guess I am an engineer at heart and engineers like making things better.

Caitlin Cooper:

I was thinking that when you said it, as are you a solution mind yeah, but I think it's increasingly.

Adam Wheelwright:

My definition of better has shifted from, I guess, earlier in your career you're in more boundary problems Sort of. Certainly, when you get to sort of C level you are tackling some unboundary problems of how to make organizations better and businesses better, and you know that's a far broader, more complex problem. So I guess, in addition to making things better, I'm also quite passionate about exploring and solving for complexity. And again, I think it's sort of I like reading outside of work. I read a lot around, I watch a lot of YouTube around all sorts of different topics.

Adam Wheelwright:

As you both know, a lot on sport. I'm quite obsessed with sports, but pretty broadly read and I think that's quite important to think about the breadth of perspectives that can be brought from lots of different disciplines in lots of different subjects and topics. But I'm also personally very motivated around getting better, whether that's kind of taking on long distance endurance cycling events or it's kind of dirt bike, motor cycle riding, which I'm sort of trying to get better at all the time. But it's always around, you know, usually getting better and then increasingly, from a work perspective, about solving for complexity.

Caitlin Cooper:

I think it's interesting that you brought the sport piece into it because, Amanda, I think we find also in terms of psychology and performance, often people that have been from a maybe sports background they come and they start, especially when they're talking about teamwork. They seem to come and do lots of speaking events in our line of work. So I think there's definitely a link there between psychology and then performance and sports interesting, isn't it?

Dr Amanda Potter:

And the question is to what extent does that sport mindset actually translate into organizations? Because if you think about the breed of people in organizations and the type of people and the reasons why they're there, versus the reasons why people participate in sport if they're not professional, actually the motivation is so much different. But anyway, that's a whole another topic we can go down, but I do agree we can learn a lot from sport yeah, so I guess...

Caitlin Cooper:

Amanda, my question for you, then, is what made you invite Adam today on the podcast? What was the aspiration behind having Adam here?

Dr Amanda Potter:

It's a great question because you might ask me, as someone who's a psychologist with 30 odd years, why have we invited a chief technology officer in to talk about performance and potential? And it came from a conversation that Adam and Sarah had. That was all about trying to really articulate potential across IG group and Sarah was really impressed with some of the thinking and some of the reading that Adam had done because it was really influencing the way in which he was leading his people across the organization. And the big conversation they were having is around potential for what? And that really resonates with what we talk about in our organization, because we do not think about potential as a single construct. You do not have potential or not have potential. All of us have different potential depending on what we're trying to achieve. So it's that conversation that really drew Adam towards the pod and Sarah introduced us and we've invited him to join us today.

Caitlin Cooper:

So why do you think that so few organisations look at potential for what?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So from my side, I think it's simplicity. We know from the neuroscience research that we are always looking for the simplest solution possible because our brains like predictability, they like simplicity and we like control. And therefore, if we could just have a single model of potential that really helps articulate whether someone would fit into an organization or not fit into an organization, maybe due to cultural values, fit or not that would be lovely and simple and that would be easy to apply and an organization can buy it and it can deliver it very simply. But the reality life's not like that. Life's much more complex and I think that's why organisations want to buy into this single model of potential model versus addressing actually the reality of complexity around the world of potential.

Adam Wheelwright:

Nicely, and it's quite reassuring to hear that the search for silver bullets isn't just limited to technology, that organizations are looking for silver bullets in you know kind of their organizational effectiveness.

Adam Wheelwright:

But I completely agree, it takes a bit of work, I think, to define what you want people to be capable of doing, because actually that has to be anchored around what is the purpose of your business and what are the differentiators that are going to make your business successful relative to anybody else? And it kind of sounds really obvious. And I've been in lots of organizations where you know everybody kind of sits around leadership team tables and nods and sort of agrees and everyone thinks they're on the same page until you actually ask them to define it and then you realize they're not. And you've got a room of 10 executives. You're going to get 10 definitions of what potential means, none of which are right or wrong, but it means actually we're talking at cross purposes and we're not on the same page. And then we tend to trivialize it by hoping that somebody externally can come and give us an answer. Can't you just tell us who our high potential people are, as though it's some type of kind of mathematically calculatable thing?

Dr Amanda Potter:

And often it's calculated using an equation which is taken from a consulting framework or from a book. And you're right, people are assessed numerically against that model and that is really dangerous. And that's why I think it's so important to have this conversation, because I completely agree with you. For me, the point that you said right at the beginning, Adam, which is depending on the focus or strategy or goals of the organization, will direct what our thinking and our focus on. What is important.

Dr Amanda Potter:

What do we need from these people in order to drive organizational success? We were talking about it earlier, weren't we, Caitlin? So, if the focus of the organization is around growth, or it's around EBITDA, or if it's around sustainability, what is the focus of the organization? What is the agenda For yours? It sounds to me from your initial introduction it's about innovation and it's about practical application of that innovation, so it's attractive to customers. If that's the focus, what does potential mean for your organization? What types of roles do you need and what type of people do you need to fill those roles in order to achieve the goals and the aspirations your organization is setting out to achieve? If we all use the same model of potential out the back of a book. Well, need I say more?

Adam Wheelwright:

I'll build on that, Amanda, because I think there's an additional complexity to it in that I think in any organization, particularly a medium or larger organization, you might have multiple sort of contexts and multiple situations. So you may have some parts of the business which are in heavy growth mode, some might actually be sort of coming towards the end of product lifecycle and in a kind of close down mode. It isn't a one size fits all, is it? And I think this is kind of again why that whole can't just tell us just who the potential are for future just doesn't work, because different situations, different contexts over different timeframes do need different things and the language isn't possibly great. But you know, there's quite often wartime leaders and peacetime leaders, and some people are very, very good in slightly more peacetime scenarios and some people are very good in wartime situations. You know you've got to sort of think about what is your challenge. What is it that you're actually trying to achieve as a business outcome dynamics? It does change over time.

Dr Amanda Potter:

It's so interesting, isn't it? Because I ended up thinking about yourself, actually, Caitlin, and the point you've just made Adam. You and I were talking about yesterday, Caitlin, around the fact that in a recently, in a personal crisis, that you really stood up in that situation and you were way more resilient, way calmer and in control than you thought you were capable of doing.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Now, if we had assessed you, we might not have any way got near that capability that you showed in that crisis. To your point, though, Adam, that organizations, when they're going through these different stages of transition, they need different things from different people. When Caitlin had a tricky personal situation where you really stood up, you had potential in that moment, Caitlin, that you didn't know existed. So it takes being tested, it takes being put on that precipice to actually understand how much we've got within us, and whilst I'm someone who's, for the last 30 years of my career plus, has been building talent assessment for potential programs, I'm learning all the time that it's just not that simple, that we do need to really understand the whole complexities of potential and that potential for what is really different in every context of our life.

Caitlin Cooper:

So then, why do you think that many organizations avoid having more flexible models?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Well, I'm probably going to say the same answer, but I'd love to come to you, Adam. I think it's because simplicity. I think that the reality is. In the past we have built models that are complex. We had a best model of potential, which was behaviors, expertise, strengths and tenets and otherwise values, and even that was too complex for clients. So we just know, to have four things is just too much. Can't we just have simple capabilities? Because as soon as you bring complexity in, the communication of that model is much more difficult and so, therefore, getting the buy-in across the business is much more difficult. What's the actual truth from your side, adam?

Adam Wheelwright:

I'll go. I'll go to sort of two points of reference who I quite regularly reference and quote. So first is kind of things our einstein said we should strive to make things as simple as possible, but no simpler. And I think too often I think with kind of talent assessments, anything around performance management, businesses, we make it too simple. I completely agree. The cognitive overload of 30 dimension matrices is too much for most people. But trying to reduce it down to an over simplistic way is not helping us.

Adam Wheelwright:

And then I was, the second sort of point of reference I think is daniel kunerman's thinking slow and fast and again, I think, his research into sort of system one thinking and system two thinking and the fact that people tend to be a bit lazy in their thinking and so, yeah, for sensible reasons, default to system one, which is the kind of amygdala driven thinking patterns. I think they go, it's obvious, it's obvious, but we just need higher potential people and it's a system one response that doesn't really fly as soon as you start asking the system to critical, well, what do you mean by that? And kind of like, how do you identify it and what is it and how do you develop it, and all those kind of sort of questions do require effort and they require time. And that's probably third reflection, and I think we talked a bit about this in the prep for the podcast.

Adam Wheelwright:

I think there's a bit of ego comes into this, particularly from senior execs, people thinking, you know, just need people like me. And there's a bit of arrogance in there as well, thinking that somehow and I really liked what you were saying, Amanda that you know, even as the sort of ceo of your business and a very experienced practitioner, you're learning every day. It's certainly how I think about things and certainly when I look at peers either people I've worked with or I'm working with or have worked with everyone can always be better, can't they? And I think you've got to sort of downplay the arrogance that somehow, because you've got a fancy title, you are the finished product. And again, I think that's a little bit of sort of shorthand that people use to go just get people like me and it's not recognizing that everybody's a work in progress.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Bias. There's a beautiful summary of bias. I mean, all of us are open to and are prone to bias every day and and that's because they're shortcuts. They're mental shortcuts. They help us process the world and information and consequently the one that you're referring to, the similarity bias. It's so easy for us to be attracted towards and want to work with people who think similarly because it takes away the cognitive load of having to disagree or having to come to an argument with two completely different perspectives. So I understand why, but it's a real shame because, of course, that homogeneity removes the prospect of really strong problem solving and decision making and innovation.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Now, what I thought you were going to say there wasn't about bias, interestingly, was more about the. I know my people, I know what potential is and I can spot it, Because that's something I hear quite a lot in organizations. I don't need an external consulting firm to come in and tell me who has and who hasn't got potential. Not that we should have that question, actually, Because I know, because I work with these guys, and I can spot it myself.

Adam Wheelwright:

Yeah, I think I think there's a bit of arrogance and ego comes into that sort of those types of statements and those types of reflection.

Adam Wheelwright:

I think there's also a different type of bias comes in, I think, with that, in that quite often people are very good at spotting people who are good at doing the job they're currently doing and they assume that that means that they then have potential to do a different job or a more complex job or a more challenging job in the future, and I don't think those two things are automatically the same at all.

Adam Wheelwright:

Yeah, from my standpoint as more of a practitioner you know, technology leader, business leader I do think the ability to deliver on your current role is quite important as a sort of just a credibility foundational thing, but it is absolutely no guarantee of future success, because I think you know the challenges you take on at exec level are very, very different to the challenges you take on leading your first team of maybe seven people and the similarities and there is some degree of overlap and foundational coherence to it. But it's a completely different challenge. And just because you're very good at delivering here and now, in the short term, there's no guarantee that you can lead an organization strategically and help grow share price.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Do you know what? It's such an important point you made earlier about the multiple contexts within an organization, that one aspect of the organization may be driving for EBITDA growth, another might be driving towards sustainability, another part might be all about innovation. It might be about embarking into new markets, for example. It's such a good point, actually, that a single entity might be so different and therefore, going back to that passion question that Caitlin asked, the passion that you need in each of those entities or aspects of the business will be quite different, because that kind of takes us to the whole strengths conversation, doesn't, Caitlin?

Caitlin Cooper:

Well, I was actually curious. I was thinking as you guys were talking, Adam, from your experience, what do you think organizations should think about then, when they are building and applying a model of potential?

Adam Wheelwright:

I think you've got to sort of think through the fact that you've got these different situations for different parts of the business at different times, so you're going to need sort of some different ingredients from that angle. I think you need to reflect that in most businesses you've got different professions that contribute different things, and what you need in technology is slightly different to what you did in finance or marketing or an HR team or a product team. Yes, there are some similarities, but, yes, equally there are some differences. And so I think you've got to sort of decompose those things down. And then I think you need to ultimately recognize that and I will go to a sports analogy on this you know, you're not going to be able to compete and cycle for Great Britain at the Olympic level if you don't know how to ride a bike.

Adam Wheelwright:

And one of the things that a lot of the sort of more progressive sports organizations do whether they're football clubs or their national bodies, if it's more of an Olympic sport is they have this idea of the pyramid.

Adam Wheelwright:

You know, you put the foundations in place and there is a coherence all the way through from kind of grassroots level, community sport, all the way through to the elite level, and so there's consistency there and you may be playing the same sport, but at the elite level it's very, very different to what you're doing at the grassroots level, even though the fundamentals of it are very similar. And I think that's kind of again that adds a degree of complexity to this that you've got to view potential as being something that varies as you take on different challenges and you progress your career and start to realize that potential or not realize that potential. So again it's back to what we were talking about. There's a lot of complexity in this, which I think is unavoidable if you're going to do it really well. Flip side we've got to be careful not to make it too complex that we spend the next 10 years doing a PhD project on it, because that's not effective for businesses either are you ready to take your team on a journey that drives their performance?

Speaker 4:

Georgia's book is definitely worth a read. What could also help you along your journey is some insight into your team members individual strengths BeTalent. Team is powerful and flexible, and we promise the insights will give depth to understanding the cognitive diversity of your team and how to work together better, building trust through awareness of what motivates each other rather than making assumptions. Visit thecpocouk to learn more about the BeTalent suite or get in touch with me on LinkedIn. That's Angela Malik, m-a-l-i-k.

Caitlin Cooper:

So then I guess, going back to a moment ago, when Amanda was bringing in the strengths part of things, I know that when we've worked together before you've actually completed our strengths questionnaire, so I wondered what your perspective was on how strengths come into play when we're thinking about potential.

Adam Wheelwright:

Yeah, this again, it was a really useful exercise going through that kind of strengths audit that I did as part of that sort of calibration work and it's not the first time I've done it and I think that personal insight is really really useful because I think the slight cliche that added your play to your strengths is very relevant.

Adam Wheelwright:

I think sometimes you've got to sort of offset your kind of stuff you're not so good at because we have to be able to flex. But I think increasingly certainly from my own perspective I'm sort of in my 50s. Now I have more choices about what type of work I do, so I want to be doing the type of work I am good at and be enjoy in a sea of culture that I enjoy, and being really aware of kind of what you're looking for is really important. So I found doing this thing really really helpful. Again, I think it's another part of what we should be considering with sort of assessing potential and ultimately performance as a result of that is helping people to get more self-awareness about what are they good at, what do they enjoy doing, what do they need to flex at to be better versions of themselves. But ultimately it's hard to imagine a high performing organization where people are just not maximizing their potential by not playing to their strengths.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And then explaining that actually, that in itself has changed. The definition of that has changed over the years. And then, therefore, how you've applied that in organizations is so key, because the whole concept of strengths is very much about how can we, like you say, increase the self-awareness so that people really understand what they enjoy, what they'd like to gravitate towards, what they will practice and therefore get great at, so that when they go to work they're happy, they're well and also they're adding value, and it just creates the right environment for success. So I agree, I think strengths are a really important part of potential, which is why they're part of our original best model.

Dr Amanda Potter:

We don't really talk about quite so much now, but I really think each individual will need to, of course, demonstrate core capabilities. Do they have the knowledge, do they have the skills? Do they have the experience and the expertise in order to do the job? That's a given. But actually, what really makes you special, Adam? What is it that you bring as a Chief Technology Officer that sets you apart all of the other chief technology officers in organizations of this kind? That really differentiates you and helps IG Group to be the best it can be From a technology perspective? You don't need to answer this, by the way.

Adam Wheelwright:

I was hoping that was rhetorical. I didn't want to embarrass myself on the pod.

Dr Amanda Potter:

That is the point, though, isn't it? You know, find what you love and then apply it, but the problem is with many potential models they don't think about it from strengths context.

Adam Wheelwright:

They think about it in terms of a behavior or capability context I think that's spot on and I think it's because it's too often a sort of one-way conversation, not a two-way conversation. It's too much about what does the organization want from an individual, and that's an important dimension. But as equally important probably, if not more important, is what does the, what does the individual want from the organization, and it has to be a two-way conversation. I think, and probably one of my uh, having gone through something in a previous organization, what I went through a sort of potential for future leadership type assessment and one of the conclusions I came to is actually I didn't want to be part of the FTSE 100's Exco because you spend an awful lot of time doing governance stuff, which is the stuff I probably enjoy least about any of the roles I've done, because I'm kind of, at heart again, somebody that likes to fix things and get a bit more back into the gem and not spend time just doing governance to satisfy an excellent audit.

Dr Amanda Potter:

What a great realisation to have got to, and actually I think it takes a lot of courage to say that I'm actually not going to step up. I'm not saying you didn't, but I'm not going to step up at this moment into that role because it doesn't necessarily fit with what I love aspirationally. It may enhance my CV, it may give me even more credibility, but does it bring me joy? I wonder how many of us keep trying to pursue goals that aren't necessarily going to bring us joy and happiness.

Adam Wheelwright:

Yeah, I mean, I think there's again in life. You know you've got to sometimes do stuff that you've got to do, haven't you? For the situation you're in? But I think you know where you do have an opportunity to have a bit of a reset and do something different. I think anchoring that around you know what's going to tick more of the boxes, what's going to give you more fulfillment seems like a really sensible way of going about it. You're fortunate enough to have that opportunity to make those kind of choices.

Caitlin Cooper:

I just want to take a step back because, Adam, you mentioned previously about actually it's perhaps lots of organizations are obviously looking at what do we want out of the individual when we're looking at potential but actually you said it should be a two-way process and when we think about strengths as well as from an individual perspective. Amanda, I just wanted to ask you, based on your experience, what you found, obviously speaking to lots of different organizations and building lots of models of potential. I wondered what your perspective on that was.

Dr Amanda Potter:

That is a good thought, because most of the time, we're thinking about from the organization's perspective. What do we want from the people that the organization is employing? What characteristics do we want from them in order to enable that organization to drive success? So very much the potential. For what conversation? Given the agenda, given the vision, the strategy, the aspirations and the mission of the organization, what are the things that the organization needs to dial up via its people?

Dr Amanda Potter:

That's really very often the conversation, but just earlier today I was recording the early career podcast with Angela and she was talking about the fact that the early career entrants and the graduates who are coming in are being much more demanding about what they want from the employer and their expectation that they are setting for their employer around. What is the purpose of this organisation and what's this organisation doing in society and what's the difference that it's making and how is it operating and how are we interacting? Therefore, what's my role in that? I think it's a brilliant observation because I think it's going to become more two-way At the moment. It's always been quite one-way. This is what the organization wants from its people, and our gift in return was we'll give you great feedback, we'll give you insight. We'll give you all these amazing tools like the Be Talent questionnaires so that you can learn about yourself, but I think it's a really good observation that we should probably be asking more questions about what people want to.

Adam Wheelwright:

I think, because it's ultimately I think we talked about this before recording, but I think it's again the search for potential is ultimately the search for future business success or organizational success, isn't it? And again, I just struggle to imagine how you're going to be as successful as you could possibly be if you have people who don't really want to be there or be in that organization. It just doesn't strike me as being the optimal kind of engagement model really, and so I think we've got to be I internally. I'm not sure how appropriate this is, but I use the kind of analogy of dating.

Adam Wheelwright:

It's kind of, unless both parties kind of enjoy the day, they then tend not to go on more dates, do they? And I think it's kind of employment needs to be thought of a bit more like that and a bit less about the I would probably describe as a slightly old-fashioned you come to work for us and you know you've got to work for us. I think it has to be a two-way street and people do have choices, and I think that kind of whole job for life thing that I think did exist, I think, previously, I think is going away if it's not gone in lots and lots of areas, and so I think you've got to be a bit more balanced on it and try to create those proverbial win-wins.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think it's a really good point, because people vote with their feet, and more than ever, and the data from Angela's early career report is showing that one in 10 early career and graduates will reject the offer after they have accepted it. So they will accept a place in an organization and then they'll change their mind and more and more candidates and new employees are moving career within two years. So I think you're absolutely right. People are actually realizing that they don't need to be in a job for life I mean, we don't hear that term at all anymore, do we? But actually that they have all of the power and all the opportunity to go and carve their own squiggly careers.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, Adam, I have a question for you then; how can organizations drive a higher performance culture and focus on agility and potential? If you were to summarize some key points around that, if you don't mind telling us, that'd be great.

Adam Wheelwright:

I should maybe write a book and might be able to give up the day job if I have a good answer to that. Um, yeah, it's not easy, is it? I've sort of got three points I'll probably come back to fairly regularly. What is assuming that high performance or potential identification is something that the HR team need to do is kind of one. So outsourcing it to HR whether that's the internal HR team or it's onto a company like Zircon or anyone else I think it's a mistake.

Adam Wheelwright:

I don't think you can outsource this. I think, as a business leader, you need to be very present and front and center in defining what is high performance in your particular context, in your particular profession, and I don't think anybody else can really do that. So, you know, in the context of IG, you know I need to define what type of technologists we need. I need to define not just the technical skills but I also need to define the behavioral skills, capabilities and, ultimately, the culture, because nobody else can do that. I really don't think anyone else can do that. It's not not the big meal that's articulating the role needs to do that. So I think that's kind of point. One is don't outsource it to the people function to. I think is anchor all of this on business results, again, I don't think the outcome of the potential assessment isn't a nine box grid model or any other kind of summary articulation of how many high performing, high potential people we've got. That's a tool, it's a useful tool, it's a good tool, it's something I think companies should do and invest in, but it means not an end. The end is actually higher business performance and again, I think with that you've sort of got to recognize that there's going to be gaps in any form of assessment. I recognize that just because somebody's been mapped to a particular quadrant in any type of assessment framework, there's no guarantee they're going to be high performing or high potential for future. I think things can change.

Adam Wheelwright:

Which, I guess, really brings my third point, and this is a kind of sporting analogy. Unfortunately again I have to bring it back, but but you know, reality is an elite sport at any level. You are only as good as your last performance, whether your performance is in training, in the gym, or it's on the track, or it's on the practice pitch, or it's a performance in the actual event that the competition, the match, your primary goal for the year. You are only as good as your last performance. And I think again, we've got to recognize that just because you've been rated as high potential at some stage in your career, that's not a forever thing, you know.

Adam Wheelwright:

It does change. Your situation changes, your personal ambition changes, the demands of the organization change. So you've got to be flexible and I think you have to revisit this fairly regularly, probably not every day, probably not every week, probably not every month, but I've thought something like a quarterly rhythm of just sort of checking in to see whether that previous assessment of performance, current performance and future potential is still valid and whether the person still has the same drive and ambition that they had previously. It needs to become more of a regular thing, not an ad hoc thing you do every two years to be able to give the board some type of talent assessment.

Caitlin Cooper:

It's like a continuous progression, basically.

Adam Wheelwright:

Yeah, but all of that does take work and it does take effort. But from my standpoint, I don't look at that as a cost. I look at that as an investment in getting better and an ultimate look at that as being key to how you're going to get business success. I think it's an investment worth making, but I think every organization, every individual, every leader needs to make that rowy calculation in their heads so just to summarize, then don't outsource your talent requirements to HR.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I would say partner with them, because HR bring a lot of expertise, whilst we don't want to overly rely on the tools, the questionnaires, the nine box grids, the models of potential. They are the vehicle for driving decision making and enabling decisionmaking, because that information is power and the fact that potential is not static. You know it's a moving beast. To have a single model is actually quite short-sighted, that we need a lot more agility in our thinking.

Adam Wheelwright:

I think, yeah, again, it's one of those things, isn't it? It's sort of I think, again, if I look back on my start of my career, there's a lot more potential there than there is probably now. It's just natural, it's just part of it, right. It's again, when you kind of start out, you don't know very much, do you?

Dr Amanda Potter:

And you haven't got much experience, so the potential is as much as caitlin's got, exactly exactly. Indeed, us in our 50s vs. Caitlin, who's got incredible potential all ahead of her.

Adam Wheelwright:

It does change over time, doesn't it? And again, it's not.

Caitlin Cooper:

It's not static I actually potentially wanted to pick up on point three. You made making a continuous thing to kind of check in. We when we first met adam you mentioned a sport analogy that I think referred to johnny wilkinson. I wonder if that was appropriate and linked to that point three around. I think the analogy you made was works if you're always on video, so does that kind of tap into that self-reflection continuous where am I at, where do I need to be? Because, as you said, things change and you're not. You might be high potential but actually that can change and I wondered if there was a link there.

Adam Wheelwright:

I think again, this is the kind of linkage between the two-way conversation thing we talked about a few minutes ago and kind of bringing it to there around high performance and high potential, I think, where I kind of drew that analogy. An analogy for those who aren't aware yeah, Johnny Wilkinson, England rugby union player, slightly obsessive in his aspiration to be the best possible rugby player and then ultimately won the World Cup in the early noughties, and one of his kind of mental models was to sort of think about the idea that he was constantly being videoed in everything he did in his life, 24-7 whilst a professional athlete, and that video at any point could be shown to the people he cares most about his friends and his family. So he always wanted to show the best possible version of himself and that's what led him to being probably slightly obsessional in his application to becoming the best rugby player he can, but ultimately he did get there. I think the reason we got onto that caitlin, is because we were talking about know lots of companies aspire to have high performance and I think my sort of point back and why I brought that analogy in was, yeah, high performance is great but it does require hard work and it does require an awful lot of dedication and it does come with kind of pressure and expectation.

Adam Wheelwright:

It is this kind of idea that you know again, over time it does change and you might not. You know, to be really good and maximize your potential does require effort, it does require focus, it does require conscious choices to be better. You don't become better by just existing. You've got to become better by exposing yourself to new situations, thinking about things, reading about things, observing things, taking learnings from wherever you can take them, all of which requires effort. And again, I've got a fundamental thought. So maybe this reveals more about me.

Adam Wheelwright:

But I think high performance does come with a belief that you can always be better, which can, if taken to excess, probably lead you into quite a bad place, which is what it did to Johnny Wilkinson, because then he ended up with mental health issues about never feeling that he was good enough because you'd always be better. And again, it's too much of anything is bad, isn't it? And too much focus on high performance, that relentless improvement and the relentless belief that you couldn't be better, if taken too far, can make you start feeling kind of worthless and that you're never good enough, and so it's a double edged sword, I think, and again you've got to be sort of careful what you wish for. You know people talk about wanting to be part of the high performance environment because it is fun, but it is equally very demanding and it's hard work and it is draining.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And you've got to recognize that there is an overhead to it as well, which is, I mean, given all the things that you've just said, which is the downside of it then we have to surely just focus on the things that we enjoy that bring us joy. We spend so much time at work To do that and to work as hard, as you've just said, to achieve and to perform and to succeed, then the silver lining has to be that if we do it, doing something we love and we enjoy, and with people that we get energy from, then that has to be, for me, the secret ingredient of success. If we push ourselves so hard and it feels like a slog and we dread going to work each day, then that's not fun because we spend so much of our waking day at work.

Adam Wheelwright:

I was gonna say, if, yeah, if being really really good at something was easy, everybody would be doing it, wouldn't they?

Adam Wheelwright:

it's kind of hard. It's hard work but again, I think, in the context of businesses in particular, I think they are there to make things better and you know whether that's better for the owners of the business or it's for the customers, or it's for the staff or society as a whole. I think you know. Your job, I think, as a business leader, is to make things better. Unfortunately, that is quite hard and it does require a bit of stress and it does require a belief and this is kind of almost an amazon thing, that kind of every day you can be better great well, I believe that draws us to the end of our time together.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So any final comments, amanda, from your side I think it's just been a great conversation, really making me think about the role of the consultant, the role role of HR, in working in partnership with business leaders like yourself, adam, so that together we can solve the challenges around talent, so that we don't come in too heavy handed with single models and we don't come in too heavy handed with oh. I've done 30 years of research. I know all the answers to those questions. But actually to really draw out your knowledge and your insight after all of your years of work, and how that comes together with ours, I think is so important, because I think there's a risk that, as experts that we are in the world of talent, that we could come in to all knowing and that we stop being curious and we stop asking questions and we stop having insight.

Dr Amanda Potter:

You know, when Sarah said to me that you were being invited and we stop asking questions and we stop having insight, you know, when Sarah said to me that you were being invited and then said to me he's the Chief Technology Officer, I was like, oh OK, that's interesting, why are we inviting the Chief Technology Officer to talk about talent? And so that's a brilliant example of my brain kind of faltered and thought why is he coming? What's he going to add At the moment? I spoke to him, spoke to you. I was like I get it.

Adam Wheelwright:

That's my final comment, really and adam anything from you oh, we'll finish with a sports analogy so I thought that was coming.

Adam Wheelwright:

I know, yeah I mean, I often talk internally about the fact we play a team sport right, and in most businesses they are team sports.

Adam Wheelwright:

It, you know, it's not about the individual success, it is about the team success. But I think it's equally, as leaders in those businesses, we should view ourselves as the coaches and the managers and our job is to get the best possible team prepped and ready to go in the best possible way, with the clearest game plan. Get them on the pitch playing and then the results will be what the results are. But we also need to think about that as being well, what team we're going to need for next season and the season after that, and how are we going to develop a future talent? And I think that's quite a nice way of thinking about the development of potential, the realisation of people's abilities and capabilities over timeframes, but it is always anchoring on you're only as good as your last performance and you've got to deliver the results in the shorter term to retain the right to develop the potential of people for the future very nice I mean, I personally love a sports analogy, so thank you.

Caitlin Cooper:

That does kind of bring it to life in a different sort of way. So thank you and, yeah, thank you both you for taking the time today to have this conversation, and to our listeners. Thank you if you enjoyed this episode, if you can think of someone who you think would enjoy listening to it, and feel free to share thanks very much thank you everyone.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I hope you have a wonderful and successful day.

People on this episode

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Dr Amanda Potter

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Tim Hepworth

Host
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Caitlin Cooper

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