The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep65 Introversion: Why is it underappreciated and misunderstood?

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol

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Unlock the hidden strengths of introversion in the workplace! Join us as Amanda Potter, CEO of Zircon, breaks down the often misunderstood traits of introverts and extroverts, backed by insights from Jung, Eysenck, and psychological models like the Big Five and MBTI. We'll dissect how biased language can shape our views and why emotional intelligence is crucial, not just for professionals but for everyone aiming to create more inclusive environments.

Ever wondered why extroverts seem to dominate organizational cultures? Amanda and I shed light on the importance of fostering psychological safety and inclusive communication to ensure that quieter voices are heard. Contrary to popular belief, introverts bring invaluable observational skills and concise contributions that can transform team dynamics. Don't miss our discussion on the myths surrounding extroverts in sales roles and how a balanced approach can yield more effective and diverse teams.

Curious about the neuroscience behind introversion and extroversion? This episode dives into how different environments and social settings impact each personality type, from dopamine responses to overstimulation. We also challenge the stereotypes around introverts and extroverts in sales and management roles, highlighting real-life examples and the significance of self-awareness and emotional intelligence in leadership. Whether you're an introvert, extrovert, or somewhere in between, this episode offers a deeper understanding of how to harness your unique strengths in the workplace. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that champions the value of diverse personality traits.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

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For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform please contact: TheCPO@zircon-mc.co.uk

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer podcast. I'm Caitlin and I'm here with Amanda Potter, ceo of Zircon, and today we're going to be discussing the topic of introversion, which I personally am super excited about. I've always been fascinated by it's a topic that comes up quite a lot actually, I think obviously at work, but also at conversations around the dinner table. So today, the focus will be specifically on discussing the strengths of being an introvert and why it's often misunderstood and underappreciated, particularly in the workplace. So firstly, hello, amanda, welcome.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, caitlin. Thank you very much welcome. Thank you, caitlin, thank you very much, and how interesting the point you've just made about the conversation introversion versus extroversion creates. We've just been on our team stand up, haven't we? Because it's a Friday today and we talked about the fact that we're recording today and there was an immediately a really lively debate in the team about the role of introversion so interesting.

Speaker 1:

I thought the same. I think it's because everyone can, you know, speak to it and relate to it to some degree, and a lot of people are on that journey to kind of figuring out what are they, or they just know. I'm definitely an introvert, I'm definitely an extrovert.

Speaker 2:

And it's the one scale of personality that everybody knows. If you were to ask most of the general public about personality theory, most of them, I think, would come back to the introversion, extroversion dimension. They wouldn't be talking about type A characteristics necessarily. They would be talking about that one scale, I think.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree, I think that's definitely why, but I believe the topic was selected by Simon Gander at the ABP conference earlier this year. Do you know why specifically it was selected?

Speaker 2:

So we did a little bit of a competition at the ABP conference to try and get some engagement with our audience and invite them to suggest topics. And Simon suggested that a topic might be good to look at why is it that introverts are so underappreciated in business and what is the role of an introvert in business? And I quite like that topic, particularly as I'm an extrovert. I thought it would be a good opportunity to really do a deep dive into the area.

Speaker 1:

A lot to learn but before we go into that and have a bit more of a debate around that, why don't we talk a bit about the definitions and just get some clarity around it? So what is the definition that first comes to mind for you when you think of introversion, or in other words, being an introvert?

Speaker 2:

So if I start with the Cambridge Dictionary definition, it's someone who's shy, quiet and prefers to spend time alone rather than being with other people.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and so, from my previous knowledge on introversion, it's on a scale with extroversion, as you mentioned a minute ago, being the opposite end of the scale. So what's the definition for being an extrovert?

Speaker 2:

again. Cambridge.

Speaker 1:

Extrovert is an energetic person who enjoys being with other people okay, so if we go back to introversion and you mentioned that it would describe someone as shy and quiet what are potentially some other characteristics of introversion?

Speaker 2:

well. Other descriptions as well as quiet, retiring, introspective and shy, are cautious, hesitant, unsociable and distrusting of spontaneity. There's some other terms in there which are a little bit more positive reliable, valuing ethics. So real mix, actually not necessarily all of them. I would relate to introversion and it feels to me that there's something about those definitions which feel quite biased, and that's what we're going to be talking about today the language that is being used when we're talking about introverts versus the language that's being used even in the dictionary when we're talking about extroverts. There is a social acceptance or a social desirability of some terms more than others.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's one thing I did want to pick up with you, because you mentioned both times about the Cambridge definition. That's where you went to first. So what about the psychological definition?

Speaker 2:

If we go back to 1909 with Jung he referred to the two terms introversion and extroversion in his research and described them as the core personality types. We know that personality in theory is relatively stable over time. So if we regard ourselves to be an extrovert, we're likely to be an extrovert throughout our lives. And this research was picked up by Eysenck in the 1950s, who also agreed with the extroversion introversion continuum and included those two within the big five personality types. So included it with openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness and emotional stability. So introversion isn't the sixth personality type because it's on the same scale as extroversion. You're arguably either one or the other you just mentioned big five and mbti.

Speaker 1:

For our non-psychology listeners, those are both key psychological models we reference quite a bit, but they're used to assess and describe human personality. I was just thinking, as you were saying, that I wonder what those researchers were, whether they were introverted, extroverted. Have a look into it, do a little google yes, was jung an introvert?

Speaker 2:

yes, I think mbti is one that everybody knows and was so popular over the last few decades and it really came into the world of psychology in the 1960s. When it was first sold in the 90s it was massive and even the last generation, but then we started to see other products colored based products, like insights come in that are really taking the union type approach to looking at personality what about emotional intelligence?

Speaker 1:

that's another one that I think comes up a lot. You know how you were saying at the beginning of the podcast. I think that's why it creates such a lively discussion, is it's something that the lay person kind of speaks to. And I think emotional intelligence is also a key area where a lot of people will kind of reference and throw around. So where does that come into play?

Speaker 2:

Well, emotional intelligence isn't personality. So it isn't part of the MBTI model and arguably it's correlated with the emotional stability neuroticism scale of the big five, but actually it's a separate construct. We think about emotional intelligence in terms of resilience, emotional stability, neuroticism, propensity for the experience of anxiety, feelings of being low or depression, those sorts of things.

Speaker 1:

so it could relate to well-being and emotional stability, stroke neuroticism a part of the big five, but it's not part of this so if we go back to looking at the difference between introversion and extroversion and to differentiate both for myself but also for our listeners I remember when we spoke before you once were saying how you were taught to think of them in comparison to social batteries, and I really liked that concept. I thought it explained it really well. So could you please explain that as a nice way of defining that difference between the two?

Speaker 2:

Well, I actually didn't create it. I actually remember it from my early MBTI training, which was in 2003, when I went and got trained with that gorgeous colleague of ours, julie Lee. We were at the course and they differentiated between extroversion and introversion, as solar powered robots and battery operated robots. So the solar powered robot gets the energy from the outside and the battery operated robot gets the energy from the inside. And that really strikes me because actually E and I continuum is all about energy. It's not going back to the Cambridge definition about being shy, quiet, not going back to the Cambridge definition about being shy, quiet, retiring and introspective and preferring to spend time alone. It's very much about where you get your energy from. Extroverts get their energy from the outer world, and it doesn't mean they're shy or not. Introverts get their energy from the inner world.

Speaker 1:

I guess it goes back to what you were saying earlier on the social desirability. One thing that I noticed when you were saying the Cambridge definition around the kind of shy and hesitant and retiring and unsociable, I felt that there were quite negative connotations when you mentioned the introversion trait.

Speaker 2:

I completely agree. Extroverts can be shy. So can, of course, introverts. They're different characteristics. Shyness comes from anxiety or social discomfort, and even though I'm an extrovert, I can be socially uncomfortable, but that comes from a position of anxiety. It can come from depletion and not looking after myself or being in an environment where I question myself for a particular reason. Now, that's not due to my E and my I. It's down to a number of other characteristics. So I fundamentally disagree with saying that someone who is introverted is potentially shy, because I think extroverts can be shy too yeah, I guess, historically, we try and make sense of the world, right, don't we?

Speaker 1:

so we try and cluster all these things that we see as typical, but actually there isn't some things as typical when we think about introverts being more comfortable and potentially energized by solitude. It's often said that they therefore get drained by excessive social interaction.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So that's again about energy. Introverts need to take the time to reflect and process information more so than extroverts. Therefore, they need to re-energise those batteries if we go back to that battery-operated thought. So the introverts need to go back and re-energize those internal batteries through that internal reflection and that solitude. But they still enjoy social interactions, but they don't necessarily get their energy from those social interactions in the same way as extroverts. And we will talk about neuroscience later. But there's a real link to dopamine and the release of dopamine and how introverts and extroverts respond to and release dopamine, which is so interesting.

Speaker 1:

So why do you think is that there is that slight confusion or at least multiple definitions that exist out there?

Speaker 2:

I think it's because it's been oversimplified. Your point earlier that we like to create labels and language to help understand things we do it ourselves is absolutely true, but it's truly oversimplified. Introversion and extroversion is often about party people versus bookworm and I think even the Cambridge definition sorry, Cambridge is too generic yeah, I can see why it is misunderstood with the definitions people jump to about being kind of party animal versus bookworm.

Speaker 1:

So introverts essentially do not fear or dislike others and they are neither shy nor played by loneliness, which is often what people assume. However, a crowded cocktail party of people that they don't know is potentially not going to energize them and for some it might actually feel a bit like torture. We were actually having a conversation earlier with an introvert who was saying that they feel like they have to put on an extroverted mask in those situations and by the end of it they just feel like like oh, I just need to go and lie down and be on my own. So the introverts in that instance would maybe enjoy smaller groups where they can have a bit more intimate conversations, really get that active listening going, which they'll find a bit more stimulating.

Speaker 2:

I totally agree, but I enjoy that too as an extrovert so it's definitely about levels and a continuum. It's not an either or thing necessarily. That's the point about personality. Every single person is unique. Everybody has their individual differences and some of us are really great in those social situations and others are really great working in smaller groups rather than the larger parties.

Speaker 1:

I guess it's a journey, then, of finding out, you know, if you're thinking about yourself or people you work with or those around you. It's about almost gathering the relevant data to figure out what is, you know, each individual person and where are they on the scale really? But one of the things I wanted to come back to because I think that's the essence of this podcast around you know how introverts have been overlooked and undervalued is going back to the negative stereotypes around introversion. So it was actually Susan Cain's book Quiet. For anyone who's interested in reading it, it's Quiet, which is the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking.

Speaker 1:

Someone recommended it to me a few years ago and that's where I really first thought about it, and so Susan really dives into how society misunderstands and undervalues introverts and how extroverts have been viewed more positively in the workplace. Values introverts and how extroverts have been viewed more positively in the workplace. So I'm intrigued, amanda, to know your perspective on this and why you think they have been historically underappreciated and some of the ways maybe that you can speak to this and bring light to it.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think the very first thing is when you do the profiling. As I said, I'm MBTI trained and when I used to use it a lot before we built Be Talent, there was always a predominance of extroverts in the senior leaders that I was working with, and that's because work encourages people to operate in an extroverted rather than introverted way. Because we have so many meetings, we're encouraged to speak up, to challenge, to ask questions. If we think about the aspects of psychological safety, actually a lot of those aspects are encouraging people to talk and to confer and to engage. So there is a real theme that organisations and the work environment encourages an extroverted type of behaviour.

Speaker 2:

And as an extrovert, I didn't necessarily appreciate the impact of this, nor did I necessarily, over the years, appreciate the importance of working. Nor did I necessarily, over the years, appreciate the importance of working with introverts, because the one thing I have noticed with the introverts that I work with is, whilst they are quieter clearly thank you Susan for her book they are so, so observant and they have an ability to create such incredible summaries of the situation. They're very incisive and they have a real power in pulling together the threads of an argument in a really concise and impactful way they're generally this may be an overstatement, but often the introverts that I've worked with they don't speak for the sake of it, and so when they do speak, it's worth listening to because it's something that you want to hear. And, interestingly, antonio and I were in a client meeting yesterday and we asked them about any particular characters who we should take note of, and he said there's one person who's desperately quiet, very introverted and is unlikely to say very much at all, and so I will ask that person directly to contribute, but I'll seek their permission first and I will watch their body language to make sure they're comfortable enough to be part of that conversation, because it's a room of 22 people.

Speaker 2:

I think that's the first thing is that we need to make sure we fully listen. I think we need to fully engage introverts. I think we need to make sure that we really attend to what they're saying, because when they're speaking, it's something that they've usually very much considered. As an extrovert, I know I can, as I now use too many words to explain something which is quite simple, and I have spent a long time practicing and I hope I'm a lot better, but in the past I didn't ask enough questions and I was always in too much of a hurry to express my own opinion without necessarily taking the time to listen to or consider others.

Speaker 1:

I was just thinking reflecting when you were saying that I think that's a really good nugget of information for people you know who are going into workshops or team meetings where you know you want to hear everyone's voice and how actually you know think about who you've got in the room and who's more quiet and who maybe needs a bit more time to think and who you need to maybe ask a few more questions of.

Speaker 1:

But I actually thought you were going to say who are the characters you need to watch out for. I thought you were maybe going to say, oh well, there's this person who speaks an awful lot, you know they might take up the room because it's so interesting, because you often you get both, don't you? So it's kind of looking at it again. If you look at it at the scale, you've got the quieter I don't want to even say quieter, because obviously I'm putting labels on things um, but you've got the people that you know you give them some more time to reflect, ask more questions, but actually there there might be some people in there that take up quite a lot of the stage and actually the airtime that's the word I was looking for airtime, yeah and it is true we do, actually, because we always check in with the client before we run these quite critical leadership events.

Speaker 2:

We always ask about the characters in the room to see if there's anybody we need to get buy-in from, quieten down, include all the points you've just made, and very often they do point out the extroverts, the ones who are quite dominant with their opinion, who who might take up their airtime. But it's also great to hear about the people we need to draw into the conversation more and to include, and I really appreciate the role of the extrovert. I also even more so now appreciate the role of the introvert in the team because it challenges me to pause and to use silence more and to reflect, hence using the Nancy Klein time to think approach, and I think it also encourages me to not always jump in with the first thing that's in my brain, because I'm highly impulsive but actually take time to consider what I'm going to say and to give people time to speak and to think and to respond. So I appreciate extroverts because I love the banter, I love the energy from the debate, but I also really appreciate the time to reflect.

Speaker 1:

It just goes back to that diversity, doesn't it Cogn cognitive diversity and having that difference? Just it does actually make things more exciting. But I actually read an article released from Harvard last year which suggests that extroverts express passion more frequently, so supervisors are more likely to perceive extroverted employees as more passionate than introverts, ultimately putting introverts at a disadvantage for things like promotion, pay rises, job assignments, because they often get overlooked. So if we think about this article in the context of employees and sales roles because I think people always well, that's what I always think of if I think of roles and introversion extroversion, I think a common one people maybe think too is extroverts will be better in sales roles, maybe because of that observed passion and energy. What's your perception on that?

Speaker 2:

because I think we've had conversations of this in the past so I thought it'd be quite useful maybe to share that I think I probably would have made that leap as well that extroverts are more effective at sales because they are more confident in engaging conversations. So actually I looked at the data and it's the opposite. So I was wrong. Basically, actually, introverts are much better at sales because extroverts are much more comfortable speaking. They're not necessarily as engaged and interested and curious in the other person and actually a good salesperson is able to have a two-way conversation asks questions, reflects back challenges, tries to understand. So actually, because extroverts, if it's behavior that they are not managing, they can talk without listening and they don't ask great questions. Actually it's the opposite.

Speaker 1:

So introverts almost create those deeper connections through that act of listening, through that two-way conversation, and in some cases actually, I think another maybe stereotype is if it's kind of that very sales and dominant, it might feel a bit more transactional, a bit more inauthentic, whereas if you're taking more time to create a deeper connection, it could come across as more genuine. But I think what I've gathered from this is actually have both go into a conversation, you've got your introvert, you've got your extrovert, and then you know, win-win.

Speaker 2:

Indeed, what you've just said actually reminds me of a joke I used to tell when I used to facilitate workshops. I used to say the thing is about working with an extrovert is that if they're rude to you, you think, ah well, they're just having a bad moment. If an introvert's rude to you, they've really thought about it and considered it and they really mean it. So you need to listen. But anyway, I think the other one that there's a real bias on is management and extroversion introversion. There's also a perception, in the same way as sales, that extroverts make better managers than introverts and actually, once again, it's the opposite. The research has shown that introverts are actually stronger leaders and managers and actually it's very stereotypical to suggest that extroverts might be better leaders and managers. But there's some good research looking at the relationship between those scales and the capability of leaders and capability of managers, and introversion wins yeah, that makes sense to me.

Speaker 1:

Do you have any examples of how an extrovert as a manager is? Both because you said that people would assume that you know they'd be better managers. What's the reasoning behind that? Is it going going back to that kind of passion and coming that overt interest? Do you know what that research was saying?

Speaker 2:

I'm going to talk about it not from the research, but from a real life example. Your point that there's a belief that managers that are extroverted and therefore passionate are going to be better than introverted managers is fundamentally wrong because of an example. I spoke to a client literally this week, had just come out of a one-to-one with their line manager and was there for a few minutes late for my meeting with them and said sorry, I'm late. I've just been in my one-to-one and I've just been talked at by my line manager and I haven't said a word. But I've managed to be late and so he didn't quite say it like that, but basically he said it was an opportunity for my line managers just to tell me everything he was thinking, and that's all that happened in that conversation. I said nothing. That's the downside Information dump, information dump.

Speaker 2:

And the reality is extroversion is not the baddie here and introverts are not the goodie here either. It's about understanding our own preferences, where we get our energy from, and then having more emotional awareness, which is the point about emotional intelligence that you made, caitlin Understanding it through our emotional intelligence, understanding others through our social intelligence and then tailoring our behavior as a result. So that is the link between eq, sq, e and I self-awareness is key in everything.

Speaker 2:

Always comes back to self-awareness so, caitlin, are you e or are you I oh?

Speaker 1:

that's a very good question. Um, I feel like I'm still on that journey to figuring that out, but I really do think I'm somewhere in the middle, or at least I'd say I'm an introverted extrovert, which I also read can be referred to as an ambivert there's again lots of different labels out there meeting new people and I gain energy in those situations. But at the same time, I do find I gain energy from certain people and certain deeper conversations. And as much as I like being around large groups of people, I can find small talk a bit draining and actually, in contrast to that, I do love just sitting in front of the sofa and having a quiet night and watching a good tv series with you know one or two people. So, yeah, I think it is. It depends, to be honest, but I think I'm somewhere in the middle so interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

I think a lot of people are there. Actually, I've always been very e extrovert, but actually I'm increasingly, because of being a single mum, being with my son, who is now going off to university and basically he's never home because he's having a way too good life fleeing the nest his best life. I'm spending quite a lot of time alone, and so actually, I've learned to enjoy my own company.

Speaker 1:

I've been horrible at enjoying my own company in the past, but I've got much better at it, so it's definitely something that I have learned it's funny you say that as well, because my mum would always she kind of jokes to me saying that I well back in the day she'd say that I hated being alone. I don't like my own company, but it's not really. I just like being around people because I like having other people's thought. If someone else is talking, I quite like that a lot because then I can sit and I don't have to make make the conversation sometimes. So I don't actually love being alone, but ultimately, yeah, I can find it quite overstimulating having too much time with a lot of loud voices for a long period of time.

Speaker 1:

But just going back to what you said, around it's potentially changed for you. I think that's the concept between maybe innate versus circumstance. I think that's quite interesting. But I guess we go back to the point around introverts being historically overlooked. We've mentioned, I think, throughout the podcast a couple of times, different techniques. I think it's important to recognize the strengths and values that introverts can have in the workplace. So if we go back to that and having that in mind, what would you summarize to be the strengths of introversion or introverts?

Speaker 2:

I think it's a brilliant question actually, because the big thing, according to the research, is that introverts are more able to access the default mode network which we pointed out in a previous podcast and so therefore they're much better at making those connections between ideas and doing that kind of free floating thinking which you get from exercises like free writing or when you're in the shower or walking or in the bath and so on. So when your mind is part activated exercises like free writing, or when you're in the shower or walking or in the bath and so on so when your mind is part activated and they also are able to really deeply think about things as well, so they're able to think at a deeper level. As a result, they are able to potentially I'm not saying this because I haven't got the science behind it, but they are potentially, because of that capacity, they're able to really, really reflect they might be able to make better connections, to make better decisions.

Speaker 1:

There is a lot in there that, because of their ability to really switch off and really focus, that they might be able to pay greater attention to the problem they're trying to solve yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned innovation as the first thing that comes to your mind, because obviously in that podcast that we recorded together, we spoke about the dmn and daydreaming as a means of innovation, and in that we spoke about that.

Speaker 2:

Arguably, the brain activity, or dmn, is more activated by introverts the default mode network is definitely we found in the science more activated by introverts rather than extroverts, which means that there's that connection that free-flowing ideas are more likely to happen for introverts. It's really interesting when we look at the neuroscience as well, because actually what we found from the neuroscience is that introverts actually access dopamine more readily than extroverts. Extroverts have to hunt harder and work harder for dopamine, and so that's why we, as extroverts, go out and look for it, try to get our energy from the outer world, because we're actually activating and seeking with dopamine hunters. We're trying to get our dopamine to get the positive reward, whereas introverts manage to access that dopamine a little bit easier and they get it more simply and therefore can spend more time in their inner world without having to hunt to feel good.

Speaker 1:

That makes sense. So you mentioned innovation. What else comes to mind? Strengths of introverts.

Speaker 2:

The research would say that one of the things that introverts are strong at and are capable of doing is dealing with a crisis. So introverts are calmer in a crisis than the extroverts. And that seems to make logical sense, doesn't it? Because if you think about everything we've been talking about today, actually, in an uncomfortable or difficult situation, introverts apparently, according to the research, are more likely to remain calm, to reflect, to stand back and consider the situation and the problem and then think about what are the steps that they're going to take.

Speaker 2:

There is a relationship between extroversion and impulsivity, and as an extrovert, I'm impulsive. So in a crisis, I'm likely to want to resolve it immediately and to come to the answer very quickly. And I have mentioned on previous podcasts, I'm super uncomfortable with the decision that's not being made and therefore I impulsively make decisions in order to remove the discomfort of not having made a decision, whereas introverts are much more comfortable with sitting with that discomfort or that ambiguity in order to reflect and understand the problem better, and therefore are less impulsive and less overly spontaneous in that moment, and therefore they're calmer in that crisis.

Speaker 1:

I'm like a ping pong ball I'm ricocheting all over the place you're making me think of going back to when we talk about the brain and the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex and everything. Do you know anything of what's going on from that perspective for an introvert versus an extrovert in that crisis situation?

Speaker 2:

Well, if we think about it in that moment, if we're faced with stimuli and we have the fight or flight response, the extrovert will be very active. And if you think about the relationship between cortisol and adrenaline, both of those things activate us because of fight or flight and the extrovert response is to run, isn't it? It is to talk about, it is to run, it's to solve it immediately, whereas the introverts reflection will be to consider so how does the work environment play a part in helping or negatively impacting introverts?

Speaker 1:

we've talked a bit earlier. I think we've made references, but you know, in summary, what would you say?

Speaker 2:

We need to make better decisions about the environments in which we work, because there's definitely a relationship between performance and the environment for people. So certain people want to have low levels of environmental arousal, if you like, influences around them, and some people say they need quiet in order to be able to think. Other people need to have lots of noise and lots of activity and like to work within a hubbub, and they are therefore better in an environment that has all of that stimuli. They're able to think when there's lots going on. So there is a real difference. In the old office that we had pre-COVID, there was up to 10 people in the office at a time and Sarah G, who's been with us fabulously for over 15 years, always played music.

Speaker 2:

She always has music on in the background and now she works from home. She always has music in the background or she has her birds chirping doesn't she? Yeah her birds tweeting, chirping all the time, so she's someone who really needs external stimulation. She needs to have lots of noise around her in order to be able to think, whereas I got used to having no noise around me and I think better when it's completely quiet.

Speaker 2:

So actually introverts and extroverts need a different level of external stimulation and arousal in terms of the environment in order to be able to think.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, it's interesting you say that as well, because I was thinking in a meeting, for example. I love the bouncing off the ideas and working together and having that social piece, but if I'm sat doing a piece of work and I need to concentrate, I can't have music in the background, and if it is, it needs to be classical or something with no lyrics, otherwise I'm automatically trying to sing along. So I guess what are the ways, or some of the ways in which you'd suggest people try to get the most out of introverts?

Speaker 2:

at work. I think it's really about helping them play to their strengths, because if we know that to work in a busy, noisy office is going to be draining for an introvert because they need to think, then we need to have the setup to give them that space to think. And that's why you often see booths but they look like flipping cupboards, don't they? A lot of the time there's tiny, because actually, if we think about cathedral effect, we need to have space above our heads in order to innovate. We need to have the feeling of being outside in order to have free-flowing ideas, to activate the default mode network. We don't want to put someone in a cupboard in order for them to have their best ideas, and so an introvert might need to have quiet, so they go and work in one of those little booths, but that won't help them innovate because of the environment. So actually this, I think hybrid is actually excellent it's mixing it up.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned earlier extroverts being dopamine hunters and I think we touched a little bit on the neuroscience, but I don't think we've talked a huge amount about it and obviously it's rude. It'd be rude to leave it out just following the theme of our podcast. But is there anything else you wanted to share from a neuroscientific perspective before we kind of come to the end of the podcast?

Speaker 2:

I think it's just that that it's so interesting that extroverts are dopamine hunters and the extroverts do not release as much dopamine as easily, as readily, as introverts, and therefore extroverts are on the hunt for it and trying to find ways to get it.

Speaker 1:

So that's why they're solar powered, so they're going out into the outer world to try and find ways to trigger the dopamine, whereas introverts can do it for themselves that makes a lot of sense, and I read something that was saying that too much dopamine for introverts can be overstimulating, and so that's potentially why introverts are more inclined to enjoy reading, due to the fact that it can help them release acetylcholine I think I pronounced that correctly and that's used to help us concentrate and focus. So on some level this explains why extroverts may kind of seek new and exciting situations or social opportunities, while introverts you know you mentioned earlier about bookworms, but going back to the point of you know introverts potentially getting energy from staying home with a good book or hanging out one friend in a meaningful way, and how that links back to the dopamine too much of it.

Speaker 2:

I think the point you've made, which is overstimulating, that actually the external environment for introverts is overstimulating, that actually the external environment for introverts is overstimulating, and I think that's fundamentally the point. And the reason it's overstimulating is because there is too much release for them of dopamine. Therefore they are overstimulated and it creates a discomfort and they need to go back and replenish and recover and fortify alone to get that time in order just to read a book, just to reflect, just to decompress. You hear a lot of the language of decompress and it's really interesting.

Speaker 2:

The other bit of research that I read in preparing for the podcast is that looking about faces and about social interactions, and the research has shown the brains of introverts don't react strongly to viewing new faces. They don't release dopamine when they see new faces. So if they met someone for the first time, they don't necessarily get a little boost of dopamine in the same way as an extrovert does. So when an extrovert meets someone new which is, of course, dopamine is the neurotransmitter which is associated with reward the extrovert will release a little bit of dopamine, will have a little boost and will feel good, whereas the introvert doesn't get that little boost, and so therefore the extrovert is motivated to go and meet new people.

Speaker 2:

The introvert is not, which is pretty fundamental, I think, because I get excited when I meet new people doesn't mean, I don't get excited when I see my friends, but I am genuinely interested and engaged when I meet someone new, because I'm like oh, new face, who's?

Speaker 1:

this, yeah, and I guess that maybe is why extroverts are more drawn to those you know, new social gatherings where you're going to meet new people or even networking in that sense, because it's a new face.

Speaker 2:

So that makes a lot of sense in in my head and so that really helps us make the point that we need both.

Speaker 2:

You know this whole podcast. The reason Simon suggested it was to look at the role of introverts in business, and for me there is a massive role of introverts in business because they are much more thoughtful, much more considered, very incisive with their thinking and when they comment, their comments are very well thought through. And the introverts are in our team. They think of things that I would never have even thought of, because I'm already on to the next problem, the next topic, the next idea and I'm being extremely spontaneous. So I really value the introverts in my team. But I think the other point is that the environment. It needs to be different for introverts and extroverts if we need to get the best out of them and we need to really understand that there's a neuroscientific basis to introversion and extroversion and therefore the behavior that people are activating creates a different release of neurotransmitters and therefore people feel very differently depending on where they are on that scale and therefore need very different things from their friends, from their work environment, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1:

When you're saying work environment, you're making me think of how, in Zircon, we've introduced this. No Meetings Friday.

Speaker 2:

I love it.

Speaker 1:

I was gonna say policy, but it's probably policy. But yeah, it's just no Meetings Fridays and I really like it as well. I love it.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's time to do work, isn't it? We mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, it's friday. So we are encroaching on our friday today, caitlin, because of the fact that our diaries are completely maxed at the moment. But genuinely, we both try, don't we, to keep our fridays clear so that we can do work and do reflection technically, I've had three days off this week.

Speaker 1:

I actually thought about this when I was looking at my meetings yesterday and today. I was thinking, oh, but I can't be putting meetings in. It's it's Friday. And I was thinking, yeah, but Caitlin, you've not worked for three days, so technically it's not your.

Speaker 2:

Friday.

Speaker 1:

Today's Tuesday actually today is Tuesday, okay. Well, I think we could talk about this for a long time and go through all sorts of tangents, but unfortunately I think it's time to wrap it up. So, unless there's anything else else, amanda, you want to share, I think you did just do some really nice final thoughts there, but I wondered if there's anything else you wanted to leave our listeners with.

Speaker 2:

The one thing that's in my head that I don't think I've said is my reflection on 360 feedback, because of course, we do a lot of work around 360s and feedback for our clients and we have our platform and our tool, but we also engaged by the client to deliver those one-to-one feedbacks for them, for their leaders, and how introversion and extroversion plays such a part in how A someone is going to prepare for that feedback, the extent to which they'll need to read and reflect on the report ahead of time.

Speaker 2:

Now, we always, as a rule, only release our reports 24 hours ahead of time so that people don't over dwell and overly reflect on the results and ruminate on the results in case they're not as positive as they had hoped. So we always have this 24 hours rule, but we have had feedback from a couple of people not many that that's just not enough time, that they need longer to really digest the information. And I wonder if that was an extroverted versus introverted response, because the introverts will need that time, whereas the extroverts will read it and just want to talk about it and need longer in front of someone in order to solve the problems and understand the problems, because I get my best ideas through talking, and introverts get their best ideas through reflection.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a really interesting point, but I think, as you you say, it's there to protect in a way. So if it does make more sense for an introvert to have more time, ultimately it's the reason we put that in place is so then they don't spend too much time ruminating over it without having that person to speak it through, and particularly if there's some more sensitive bits of feedback in there, because 360 feedback is so valuable but also you can have some blind spots, so there's some home truth sometimes in there that you might not be prepared for so I think the answer is that our policy around giving people one day to read the report before their feedback is a good one, but we need to be cognizant that some people may need more, so we may need to flex it, depending on individual need well, thanks again, amanda, and thank you to our listeners, and if you enjoy listening to us talk all things psychology, then do please subscribe to our podcast amazing.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, caitlin, and thank you everyone for listening. I hope you all have a wonderful and successful day.

People on this episode

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Dr Amanda Potter

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Tim Hepworth

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