The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep62 Enhancing Innovation Through Psychological Safety

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol • Season 3 • Episode 62

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Unlock the secrets to fostering a culture of innovation and psychological safety within your organization. Join Dr Amanda Potter and Caitlin Cooper for a thought-provoking conversation, where they uncover the link between psychological safety and innovation, explore the neuroscience behind daydreaming and discuss what helps and hinders innovation and creativity.

Learn how to redefine innovation beyond just generating new ideas, incorporating continuous improvement and discover the power of resilience and reduced anxiety in welcoming novel ideas and breakthroughs. Delve into practical strategies to encourage risk-taking and curiosity, and understand the crucial difference between creativity and innovation.

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Caitlin Cooper:

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr Amanda Potter, Chartered Psychologist and CEO of Zircon, and I'm Caitlin, Senior Consultant at Zircon. In today's podcast, we will be discussing innovation and psychological safety. I know, Amanda, why we always talk about psychological safety. I feel we've learned so much about it over the years, so there's a really strong business case for psychological safety. Why the interest in talking more specifically about innovation today? Hi Caitlin.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Thank you so much. I think this is a really good topic because when we're stressed and when we're working under pressure, we know that we heighten our focus and our attention on a single problem. And in these times of continual change and uncertainty, our clients are looking for ways to remove the blinkers which make them very apparent in their thinking and very focused on a small number of problems, because it creates tunnel vision and a focus that comes from working under pressure. And it's during these times of difficulty that actually we need to be more innovative, we need to be more open to ideas and we need to think more laterally and to connect the dots. So I'm really interested to look at the impact having an environment of poor psychological safety or pressure or stress has on our ability to innovate.

Caitlin Cooper:

I love that concept of the way you mentioned about the blinkers and, I guess, your general perspective on it, but what is the research saying about it?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So the World Economic Forum. They had a piece called Cultivating a Culture of Innovation at Work, and they found that high performing learning organizations are 92% more likely to innovate. And I completely agree there's some research by Deloitte on this as well that when we give people almost permission to think differently and to think laterally, they're more likely to look at alternatives. And that's what we want to do, is we want to give organizations the opportunities to help people innovate more effectively.

Caitlin Cooper:

When we talk about innovation. How would you define that?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So innovation refers to the process of introducing something new or improving a current idea. It's an interesting one, because when I talk to execs or leaders about innovation, many people assume that unless they originate an idea, they're not innovative. But actually innovation also comes from improving something that already exists. So it could be improving a method, a product, a service, or it could be creating value of some kind, or creating the efficiency, or just something completely different and novel.

Caitlin Cooper:

I suppose maybe if people think of the word continuous innovation, that kind of makes that differentiated there. But actually what you're saying is, innovation isn't just about if you come up with a new idea, it's the continuous innovation is also a concept.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Indeed, innovations don't have to be a major breakthrough. They can be as simple, as you say. Within continuous innovation, it could be as simple as an upgrade to a product or a feature or a service. We see lots of innovation in our organization. Whilst I might be the person who originates the idea and have done for many of our products, what you'll find is the team come up with a variety of suggestions, and we've got a number of notable people in the team, haven't we, who are fantastic at coming up with new ideas and new suggestions for how we can improve them.

Caitlin Cooper:

And I guess that kind of highlights how feedback, whether that's from clients, whether that's internally on our products or just generally, you know, for anyone in business, is critical for that continuous innovation and it's also important to remember that when we're stressed and under pressure, that we're not that open to those ideas.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I know personally that if I'm pressured and I've got a really relentless schedule for the rest of the week and then I need to deliver something for a client and one of the team comes up with a really good idea, I'm not as open to that idea as when I've got the time to think and I've got the time to appreciate. And so not being stressed, not being anxious, not feeling that I'm in a relentless environment is really helpful, because I'm then more open to new ideas that have not been originated by me.

Caitlin Cooper:

Yeah, so it's going back to resilience, isn't it?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So why is innovation important then? World Economic Forum that leaders that encourage experimentation, that encourage risk-taking, that don't create that sense of fear within the organization, are the ones that are more likely to deliver impact from innovation.

Caitlin Cooper:

So that's encouraging that no idea is a silly idea.

Dr Amanda Potter:

It's a great mantra and I think some of the silliest ideas we've had within our business are some of the best, actually and have ended up creating incredible products, incredible exercises for our clients.

Caitlin Cooper:

Because I guess it goes back to that curiosity piece, which is a whole topic in itself curiosity and how it's critical. But yeah, so I guess, based on what you said, innovation and psychological safety are both critical for success.

Dr Amanda Potter:

They are and they're core to the conversations we're having, because both of them are pivotal in creating high performing teams and, whilst innovation is one of the outcomes we're trying to achieve with the environment of psychological safety, it's most definitely one of the conversations we're having with our clients is often referenced.

Caitlin Cooper:

For example, you may find some behavioral models will reference creativity and innovation as one competency. But are they really the same? Because in my mind, there must be some difference between innovation and creativity.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I love it when we start really dissecting words, and this is where we're going to do it now.

Caitlin Cooper:

This is my overthinking. I know it's brilliant.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And in fact it helps me actually when we do it, because, I agree, innovation and creativity are often used synonymously and, while similar, they're not the same. Creativity is multifaceted and it's complex in that it's all about the generation of novel and valuable ideas or solutions or products. Whilst I don't think there is a single universally accepted definition of creativity, it's often understood that it's about something that's original. It's hopefully useful, hopefully meaningful, but it's most definitely original. Whilst those definitions may seem the same, it's about the process. That's really interesting. So with innovation, it's about the idea and the creativity is about the process to get there that's really interesting.

Caitlin Cooper:

You say that because the point you made at the start, which which was around innovation, sometimes, people often think that that's about creating something new, and you were just saying earlier actually well, innovation isn't just about creating something new, it's about the continuous innovation, it's building an idea. So when we talk about creativity and innovation here, it kind of links to that, because what you're saying is actually innovation is the application of a creative idea.

Dr Amanda Potter:

That's exactly it. So, in summary then, creativity is about generating the new ideas and innovation is about the implementation of those ideas in a real world way that is going to make a difference for a team or for an organization. So creativity is the starting point, the innovations, the execution and the application of those creative ideas.

Caitlin Cooper:

That makes a lot of sense. So creativity is more the thinking and innovation is more the doing.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Nailed it. We're really looking at, then, psychological safety and innovation, and we're looking at the link between the two.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, as always, we like to talk about the neuroscience around innovation, so can you tell us a little bit about what brain functions are involved when we innovate?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So there are two, and thank you, kashaya, for researching these for us. So let's look at the first one, which is the default mode network, or DMN. The default mode network encompasses a set of brain regions that are typically more active when someone is not focused on the external environment, in other words, what's happening around them, or they're engaged in specific tasks. So, in other words, when our mind wanders or when we're daydreaming, we're not focused sufficiently on the outside world. What's happening is the brain is in wakeful rest. So if we're concentrating, reading a piece of text, for example, we are focused on the external environment, we're focused on the text. But if we're walking and we're just meandering, what's happening is we're not focusing on that external environment in the same way, and that's when we can daydream or start to have patterns of thoughts. So when do you find yourself daydreaming, caitlin?

Caitlin Cooper:

a lot of the time. To be honest with you, not so much at work, um.

Caitlin Cooper:

I don't say yeah, no, I don't find myself at work. I think I'm very much kind of always, you know my mind's always working in that sense. But, um, I would say I know when I'm walking around the house, maybe, or when I'm in a car. I know some people. They constantly when they were actually my brother's a good reference point to this when he walks around the house, he's always listening to music or he's watching something on his iPad, even if he's cooking, or, you know, sometimes when he's going into the shower, whereas I don't do that, my brain is often in daydreaming mode. If that makes sense, it does.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And I find mine's walking, unless I'm listening to a podcast. I will find that's when I get my real kind of thoughts and connections between things. So that's when I'm not focusing on the external environment. Unless I stop and have a physical look around and really take in the environment, that's when I find that I do and sadly driving sometimes because it's so automatic. I find that I get my best thoughts sometimes driving it's slightly worrying, isn't it?

Caitlin Cooper:

because we're in autopilot, when you think that you should be on the ball and you're behind the wheel.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I know, and that's crazy, isn't it? That's when the default mode network is actually activated, and I can notice sometimes that when my eyes blur and I'm not focused on anyone around me in particular, that's when I'm not looking at anything in particular.

Caitlin Cooper:

That's when I'm really deep in thought. Yeah, it's almost like I'm no longer looking out, I'm only looking in. Yeah, the amount of times I get people saying to me where did your mind just go there? And, honestly, most of the time I'm thinking about something very random. You know, if someone was to sit there and say, well, what were you thinking about? I could have thought about six different things that wouldn't blow people's minds because you just wouldn't have thought that by looking at me, because it's a blank face. So can you help me understand what is actually happening inside our brains when we're doing that?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So the default mode network, which is activated when we're not focused on the external environment, which we've worked out. This is really key in helping us identify ideas, imagine possibilities and to be free with our thinking, which is why you have potentially six different random things come into your head, kk, at that point. It's because our mind wanders freely and we make these novel connections. We're not telling ourselves to write a list in our heads, we're not forcing ourselves right, what am I going to do when I get into the office, when I go for my morning walk? I'm just letting my mind drift or wander, and that's when we really explore unconventional ideas. That's when we have those incredible connections, sometimes wild and wacky, but sometimes fantastic.

Caitlin Cooper:

So the research suggests that activation of the DMN is associated with innovation and moments of inspiration. For example, studies using fMRI brain scanners have shown increased DMN activity during creative tasks such as divergent thinking, and even actors use it in improv.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Indeed. So the point then is, if you give yourself a chance to have maybe a 15 minute break during the day, go for a walk, do something that doesn't require you to be totally focused on a task, just some activity. It could be doing some stretches. We've just done that amazing yoga session with Jessica. She came into the business and did a virtual yoga session with us.

Caitlin Cooper:

I sadly missed it. I was on holiday, but I was very jealous.

Dr Amanda Potter:

It was amazing.

Dr Amanda Potter:

We're now offering the Yoga Nidra as part of our leadership event and workshops, which is totally cool.

Dr Amanda Potter:

If you can do something like that, just for a 15 minute break in the day, you're more likely to be able to activate the default mode network, which means that you are more likely to be able to come up with your best idea.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And it's a little bit like the interview that we had with Amy Brand and she was talking about showers, that most people get their best ideas in the shower. And then, when we were talking to Dulcie Swanston, who's going to be co-delivering an event with us for a client, she also is someone who talks about the importance of having showers. So I'm not necessarily suggesting everyone goes and has a shower during the day, during work time, but actually it goes to show that if we can put ourselves in a situation where we're doing slightly something slightly different than sitting at our desks, we might be more prone to coming up with these incredible ideas I've actually just come up with an idea once you've said that, I think in next team meetings we should ask everyone what was your last shower thought, because that might be a good way of getting innovation that would be a great one, wouldn't it?

Dr Amanda Potter:

one was wildest thought you've come up with in the shower.

Caitlin Cooper:

In the shower or on a walk. We'll try it. We'll try it and we'll let. We'll let our listeners know how it goes. That is really interesting because I would not have necessarily made that connection between daydreaming and innovation until speaking about it today. But it makes a lot of sense because when we've done resilience research and it says we know that going for a walk enhances your ability to help solve a problem or think of something slightly differently, because you're getting away from the stress and tunnel vision that you might have had being sat at your desk. So yeah, for me it makes a lot of sense. So you mentioned earlier that there are two, I guess, processes that play a key role in innovation when we're talking about the brain. So we've got the DMN, what's the other one?

Dr Amanda Potter:

The second is the executive control network, which helps with focus, attention, memory and decision-making, so it's much more conscious. So, whilst the DMN is more subconscious and it's not an active way of thinking, the executive control network is much more active, much more conscious and it's a really important one for error detection, for conflict identification and so identifying whether ideas are eccentric, tangible, usable will be identified by the executive control network, the ECN. So, whilst the DMN will be daydreaming and making all these lovely connections for our ideas, which will be free-flowing and potentially a little bit erratic or even a little bit wild in their suggestion, the executive control network is the realist part of the brain and almost assesses whether there's any issues or conflicts within those ideas.

Caitlin Cooper:

So to differentiate the two, when we daydream, the DMN is activated and we can innovate through that method without purposely meaning to do so, whereas the ECN is more conscious. So let's say we're in a business meeting, for example, it's likely that our ECN is activated and is there to help us focus and make decisions, which to me sounds like it could also bode quite well as a risk mitigator Indeed, and I wonder how many people actually daydream in big meetings.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yeah, you know when you've got those very large meetings and you haven't got an active position to play within the meeting other than to listen. I wonder how many people actually go into daydreaming in those meetings and therefore are activating the default mode network, whereas actually, like you say, if you were more active in those meetings then you're more likely to activate the executive control network.

Caitlin Cooper:

I guess when we talk about the daydreaming, then they could be daydreaming about something completely unrelated, but at the same time you could argue that people are daydreaming with something along the lines of the topic and they've gone off on a tangent, which again goes back to that creativity bit. Because even if you've gone off on a tangent, it opens up a pathway to look at something slightly differently and evolve the conversation yeah, and I think some of my best ideas have come from almost wild suggestions or ideas, alternatives.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Everything starts somewhere. But when we looked at this research and we worked with kashaya, what we realized is that those two functions that we've been talking about can't coexist, and that's what I find interesting. In other words, we can't activate the default mode network and the executive control network at the same time, and that's because they're antagonistic with each other. So with my psychology brain, it means that we get our wild ideas from the DMN, for example in the shower or walking or maybe listening to a large meeting. But we think more rationally and check the validity of ideas by activating the executive control network. But this requires much more focus and attention.

Caitlin Cooper:

Yeah, and I think what's interesting, I read somewhere that the MFRI studies have demonstrated increased activity and functional connectivity within the ECN during those tasks which required cognitive control and planning and decision-making, all those sorts of things.

Dr Amanda Potter:

If we go back then to the stress research and we think about the fact that we talk about the prefrontal cortex, which is the CEO of the brain, and then we need to activate the prefrontal cortex when we are wanting to make decisions and we want to solve problems, and when there's that battle between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, and when we're stressed and the amygdala is sending signals for fight or flight, that the blood and the oxygen is being diverted away from the prefrontal cortex.

Dr Amanda Potter:

It's so interesting, isn't it? Because it all kind of relates and connects. So, in other words, when we're stressed, I think we're less likely to activate the prefrontal cortex and therefore the executive control network, because we know from our psychology research that we're less likely to commit to decisions in those situations, or we're extremely impulsive. In other situations we don't think things through, we just activate a decision in order to find an answer, or we truly procrastinate and we hold on to a decision and never get to an answer. So it sounds to me like having the right balance of these two networks for origination of ideas and then the execution of ideas. Is a little bit like we were just talking about innovation and creativity earlier.

Caitlin Cooper:

Yeah, I think ECN, as you said, is more about the assessment of that innovation rather than the origination of the idea itself, which makes me wonder if there's a link between the ECN being activated more by extroverts and the DCM, so the daydreaming being more by introverts.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And in fact there is. The results have shown that introverts have a much stronger effect on the default mode network brain regions than extroverts. So you're absolutely right, introverts are more likely to activate the default mode network than extroverts are. They're more likely to daydream, they're more likely to reflect. So if we go back to that, what we're kind of concluding there is that those people who are more likely to daydream are more likely to be the originators of ideas and the extroverts, potentially then, are more likely to do the validation of the ideas, more likely to activate the ECN or the executive control network. Crazy.

Caitlin Cooper:

I know, and what's even more crazy is I actually read a quote in an article the other day that said daydreaming isn't just an escape from reality, it's how introverts process the world, which is really weird because of what you've just said, that's completely relevant. I know, okay. Well, all of that was quite technical, wasn't it? When we talk about the brain.

Dr Amanda Potter:

it does get very difficult, my brain actually hurts.

Caitlin Cooper:

Yeah, and it's a Monday. This is a lot for a Monday morning. So what else happens in the brain that helps with innovation?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So there's really two elements and they're things that we've heard about before which are firstly, neuroplasticity, because our brains are plastic and our brain's capacity to adapt and rewire itself as it learns and it responds to experiences, to habits, behavior is amazing, but all of that's truly crucial for innovation and for decision-making, and engaging in activities promote neuroplasticity, such as learning new skills, having conversations with people we've never met before, exploring diverse perspectives, challenging ourselves to not have biases but to remain open to alternatives and to novel environments, is incredible for helping us to enhance our cognitive flexibility and our creativity. So that's the first one neuroplasticity.

Caitlin Cooper:

Okay, that makes sense so what's the other one then?

Dr Amanda Potter:

The next one is something I love and I'm a bit of a dopamine girl is the dopamine system, and we know dopamine is the neurotransmitter that's associated with reward and motivation, and it plays a key role in innovation. So when we encounter a novel situation or a desire to achieve a goal, the dopamine release reinforces any behaviors that we demonstrate, motivating us to explore new ideas and persevere through challenges. So the dopamine system is also really important with innovation too.

Caitlin Cooper:

To me that makes a lot of sense because when we talk about dopamine hunters, we can get addicted to new ideas and then ultimately addicted to the benefit that that idea has brought, which then makes them want to innovate even more. So I'm sure there's loads of entrepreneurs out there who might create a business. Obviously, lots of businesses fail in their first few times. When a business doesn't fail but then thinking okay, what's the next idea, what's the next business I can then create.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I completely agree, and it's like me with product development. It's taken a lot to not keep coming up with new ideas, and what will happen is I will literally hear something or listen to something, and it validates my thinking I had did it exactly today. I was listening to the Bruce Paisley book Fortitude, and in his first chapter he talks about success highest level of success of superstars athletes versus really good athletes. So world class and then superstar podium level athletes and what's the differentiator? And he put it down to, from all the research, that the people who were real superstars many of them had had some sort of crisis in their life but they had used the sport as a way of recovering from that crisis. Well, that's exactly what we found in our winning attitude research, and so I was listening to it.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I was thinking that when you said that, oh my gosh, I was thinking that's exactly what we found with our winning attitude. Research, all those years ago.

Caitlin Cooper:

I love it when you listen to something and then everything again just connects and makes sense. Obviously, we just talked about dopamine. I wanted to go back to when you're talking about neuroplasticity. Am I right in saying that lessons learned is an example of neuroplasticity?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yes, whenever we ask questions of ourselves and each other, we're learning.

Caitlin Cooper:

Neuroplasticity is about adapting and rewiring the brain in response to feedback, experiences and learning, so it's a brilliant thing to do a lessons learned which is funny because then it goes back to psychological safety, because we know that you know, when we talk about failure and avoiding failure, actually it's important to you know, do lessons learned, look at how a project went, what, what worked, what didn't work, what can then be shared across the business in order to continually innovate and share that learning with other departments and people, so then we can all be successful.

Dr Amanda Potter:

That is the point you've made it beautifully which is, if we do have the opportunity to learn from mistakes, to talk about ideas, what worked, what didn't work, then we're going to create the right psychological state for psychological safety because we're going to emulate curiosity, enthusiasm, associative thinking, divergent thinking, learning and all those things. So I think actually what's really interesting is that psychological safety is a vehicle for high performance. Enabling innovation is almost one of the vehicles for psychological safety.

Caitlin Cooper:

Yeah, it'll work both ways. So, in summary, ultimately we're talking about learning and neuroplasticity, and then motivation and reward is in reference to the dopamine system.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yeah, and both of these things are what we need for an internal positive psychological state. When we have an internally positive psychological state, when we have an internally positive psychological state, we experience positive affect. We're more likely to have those emotions of curiosity, of showing interest, of being open to new ideas and the things that I was talking about earlier, because we'll have confidence and belief in ourselves and our ideas and therefore we'll be more open to our own ideas and the ideas of others.

Caitlin Cooper:

That is interesting given the fact that don't we tend to have a natural negative information bias that I can imagine is going to be a bit problematic.

Dr Amanda Potter:

here we do which is irritating, isn't it? And the reason for the negative information bias is to keep us safe, because the whole presence of a negative information bias is to retain the information, the facts and the threats due to the emotion and control center, the amygdala. So negative information in the brain is like Velcro and positive information is like Teflon. And sadly, 80% of the information that we store and retain are the negative, because we keep them there to remind ourselves of the threats so that we can avoid them in future, whereas the positive ones, they just slip away like Teflon.

Caitlin Cooper:

So can you think of an example where this has happened to you that actually has maybe hindered your ability to innovate?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Well, the one example that I can think of that's happened recently to me was that I was speaking at the CIPD. I was on stage speaking to a couple of hundred people, do you think? And I got off the stage and it went really well. I was really pleased. It was a real area of confidence and competence for me and I got really great feedback, people coming over to the stand, and I was really chuffed. And then I started having all these amazing ideas about what we could do next. So I was doing the kind of true Innovating, the connection of ideas, yes, which was brilliant. And then Sairi, who was on the stand with us at the CIPD, came over and said did you know? You said Mike's name wrong. And so I was referring to an example in the presentation and Mike Wright, who's one of our incredible clients from Network Rail. He gave us permission to share his data for his team around site safety and engagement, and so I did, but I said the wrong surname and I didn't know that I'd said the wrong surname and it completely flawed me. And the only thing I can remember now about that presentation is the fact that I got Mike's name wrong, even though I've known him over a year. He's one I really spend a lot of time with and I care about and I really invest in him and his team and it really matters to me that he's successful, his team's successful.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yeah, I said the wrong surname and I couldn't even remember who this other person, Mike Edwards, was. And he was somebody I'd known 30 plus years ago in my first ever job as a psychologist. I randomly used his surname. But that's so interesting because I became quite obsessed and quite single minded about that surname, Firstly, trying to remember who Mike Edwards was and then, secondly, not thinking about all of the ideas I had. They completely went out the window. I became single minded, obsessed with why did I say the wrong thing? And also feeling really apologetic to Mike. So I'm now curious to know did those ideas I became single-minded, obsessed with why did I say the wrong thing? And also feeling really apologetic to Mike.

Caitlin Cooper:

So I'm now curious to know did those ideas come back later on in the day or have they completely gone still?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yeah, I think it took. It's taken a long time to get there again. Interestingly, I did the similar presentation for the ABP conference last week and I got some fantastic questions from the floor, which then did open more innovation and more ideas and luckily I didn't get any feedback that was negative from that one Not that that feedback was negative, so I didn't have the barriers that I did in the first one. In fact, I got some really good thinking, good ideas from the audience in the second one, but it's very interesting, that negative trigger completely stopped me thinking about possibilities and opportunities. All I could think about is oh, no, no, I need to call him and apologize, in case he listens to the recording or watches the video well, I think that's a perfect example, because I wanted to ask you well, what can hinder our ability to innovate?

Caitlin Cooper:

and it sounds to me that definitely stress sounds like number one, because I guess that goes back to what we were saying about being in a positive state. Obviously, when we're in a state of stress, that's the opposite to being in a positive state, as you've just talked about.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Completely so. When we are stressed or anxious, it's really hard to innovate, because it impairs our cognitive function and our creativity by narrowing our focus. It also disrupts our working memory. It inhibits that flexible thinking that we've got when we're using the default mode network and because we've got a high level of stress hormones like cortisol, this can actually interfere with the brain function and because it also inhibits the CEO of the brain, it actually is taking blood and oxygen away from the vital parts towards the limbs and the lungs so that we can activate the fight and flight response. So if we want to innovate, we ultimately need to create psychologically safe places where people feel like they can think freely.

Caitlin Cooper:

So we've got stress. So what other things come to mind when we think about what could hinder our ability to innovate?

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think the obvious one when we're talking about psychological safety is the fear of failure, which many of us are prone to anyway because of our negative information bias. We don't want to fail, so many of us want to avoid failure, and that can be a significant barrier to innovation. But the one I think is really important actually from an organizational perspective is functional stupidity and it's creating that rigidity of thinking or processes where we require people to follow cultural norms or patterns or processes, because it can really impede innovation and it can really limit a person's ability to think freely or consider alternatives if they're having to just do what they're told or defer to leadership.

Caitlin Cooper:

So I guess the functional stupidity, the fear of failure, all of that sounds to me links back to the psychological safety, as you said, which goes back to our very first point, that psychologically safe teams are more likely to innovate.

Dr Amanda Potter:

They really are. And just in case anyone's interested in that functional stupidity comment, if you go to the stupidity paradox book by Professor Andre Spicer, there's a whole load about stupidity paradox in that book, which is fab. So I think to your point, caitlin. Yeah, it's all connected. It always is, isn't it? Stress, resilience, innovation, psychological safety it is all related. Psychological safety it is all related. And when we're anxious or when we're low on psychological safety, or when we're low on resilience, we are not priming ourselves to experience the positive affect, we're going to be less likely to activate that default mode network and we're unlikely, therefore, to come up with new and original or creative ideas.

Caitlin Cooper:

Again. It just makes me think of that word curiosity. And wasn't there a quote a client of ours said? I think we spoke about it the other day. What was it, amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter:

It was Laura, Laura McLean from Santander. She said that curiosity is psychological safety's best friend. On our ambassador psychological safety programme that are rolling out across Santander at the moment. So that's a brilliant statement. Actually, I hadn't really thought about it in that way before.

Caitlin Cooper:

So then, how can we be more curious and really tap into that when we're talking about innovation?

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think it's all the things we've been talking about before. Psychological safety is crucial in fostering innovation. It's about the perception that if we give people the opportunity to take into personal risk, such as speaking up and sharing ideas or expressing concerns, without the fear of negative consequences to self-image or status of career, we're going to create the environment where people think that their ideas are valued, respected and can make a difference, and therefore they're more likely to be innovative in their suggestions.

Caitlin Cooper:

Okay, anything else that comes to mind.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think the only thing we haven't talked about is environment. I know we've talked on previous podcasts about the fact that we found that hybrid versus remote versus in person has a different impact on the person's psychological safety and that people work in a hybrid way have lower levels of psychological safety. But there's also some research about the actual environment that we work in, that if we are more likely to go outside or go and sit in the green environment of the garden, we're more likely to come up with more innovative ideas. Or if we work in a room with very high ceilings it's called the cathedral effect we're more likely to be innovative.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So if you're struggling with an idea, take a moment to go outside, work in a room where you've got high ceilings or you've got lots of daylight or as much as you can get to the feeling of being outside, so that you can kind of open your mind and open the ideas. Let the ideas in, because you don't get the tunnel vision. The other thing is, if you go for a walk with a colleague and you're trying to solve a problem that could be the best way, don't sit upon them opposite them in a meeting room. Go outside side by side, because it is more likely the conversation is going to be free, flowing and more innovative. If you're not looking at someone directly because it's not like you versus me, actually the ideas come together. In fact, we have some of our best conversations, don't we, caitlin?

Dr Amanda Potter:

yeah, when we've got our four-hour journey to a client somewhere. We end up putting the whole world in a better place by the time we get there it's very true.

Caitlin Cooper:

I was actually thinking the exact same thing as you're saying, that, and I would also add to that in terms of you know, if you can't meet up with someone, you can still go for a walk, take the meeting through your phone. I know we've mentioned that when we talk about resilience in another podcast, but again, I think it's relevant here in terms of it just goes to show that you know, mixing up your environment and doing things slightly differently can help to, as you say, activate different functions of the brain. So yeah, on your next meeting, take it as a walking meeting, absolutely.

Dr Amanda Potter:

In fact, I met with a client a client straight contact who's setting up her own podcast, called Helen, just last week, and I said do you mind if we take this as a walking meeting? I'm desperate to get outside and we had a great chat walking, which was brilliant to get outside, and we had a great chat walking, which was brilliant.

Caitlin Cooper:

So then, in summary, what is your final words around the link between psychological safety and innovation.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So psychological safety nurtures innovation and divergent thinking by creating an environment where people can explore ideas, challenge assumptions and think laterally. So when we feel safe, we're much more likely to be imaginative, to be innovative and to, as a result, solve complex problems. So we're more likely to daydream.

Caitlin Cooper:

You've just made me think of one last final point, because I know when we talk about psychological safety, we often have that conversation around the difference between how psychological safety is a climate rather than a culture. So you know, in that respect, if psychological safety is a climate rather than a culture, so you know, in that respect, if psychological safety is a climate, then how do you believe a culture of innovation will impact it?

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think that creating processes around innovation and enabling people to be more innovative through the processes an organisation has and the values that the organization has, which are all going to inform culture, is great, but how someone feels on a day-to-day basis will have a much stronger influence on whether they're going to come up with a new idea, make a suggestion or be honest in that lessons learned conversation that enables true innovation.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So, yes, I think it's good to do all of the things around values and process and behavioral models that encourage a culture of innovation, but actually how we behave and how we interact with each other has a direct impact on how we feel and how we think, and that will have the strongest impact on our propensity to activate that default mode network and to think in a free-flowing way. How many people feel safe enough to go for a walk during their working day or go outside and take in the fresh air in order to stop the tunnel vision and to actually activate that default mode network and start thinking a little bit more laterally about what a solution might be? If we felt safe enough to do that, we might get to the solution of the problem quicker.

Caitlin Cooper:

And I think that definitely comes back, as you say, making it known within the business that it is okay to go and do those things. There's a reason why people should go outside and walk because we know that the research says that the benefits that it's having of what's actually going on inside our brains. So I guess it's about educating people within businesses. You know in team meetings that there's a reason for why we suggest these things.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think it's been great for me, because that's the point actually which I've always thought about going outside, remove the tunnel vision, take in the panorama, get in the sunlight, get the get in the sunlight, get the exercise, get the fresh air, reduce the cortisol, activate serotonin. But now, thinking about it in terms of innovation, that's a real reason for it. It's not just about wellbeing and resilience, it's actually about business performance too. So for me, just that very simple thing which is actually is better for the business as well as better for the individual, I think is a selling point which is great.

Caitlin Cooper:

Could you agree that? Then it's almost like we're saying that doing these things is almost a precursor to innovation, rather than, you know, we talk about all the wellbeing stuff being, oh, you've got to it's work-life balance, you know, fit it in around it, but actually it's maybe a precursor. You need to do these things if you want to.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yeah, do it Right, I'm going. Sorry, I'm going for a walk. Bye.

Caitlin Cooper:

Caitlin. See ya, that does actually bring us to the end of the podcast. A lot to digest for us for a Monday, but hopefully for our listeners as well, in terms of again how all these things link. I think that's the biggest thing for me that I take away is, every time we talk about about a new topic, it always comes back to resilience and it always comes back to psychological safety in some way, which just reaffirms how important the conversations that we're having are, but particularly you know how beneficial it is when we're talking to our clients and hopefully making the difference that people need and want.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I agree, and thank you, kashaya, for all the long words I cut out from this podcast because they were so complex, but we did focus on the main messages around the key brain functions that make the biggest difference.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, kashaya, thank you and thank you to our listeners. If you could please share our podcast with one friend or colleague, and also if you liked listening to this podcast, please do hit the follow button thank you, caitlin, and thank you to all our listeners.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I hope you have a wonderful and successful day.

Contributor

Dr Amanda Potter

Host
Contributor

Tim Hepworth

Host
Contributor

Caitlin Cooper

Co-host