The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep61 Unlock Business Potential by Embracing Humanity

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol • Season 3 • Episode 61

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Can kindness, humility, and collaboration be the secret ingredients to business success? Join us as we sit down with Philippa White, founder and CEO of TIE Leadership, who shares profound insights from her book, "Return on Humanity." Led by Angela Malik, and Dr. Amanda Potter, PhD.

This episode unveils compelling stories from Philippa's journey, comparing the traditional profit-driven models with those that put people first. By highlighting her experiences from business school, Philippa reveals how fostering a human-centered approach can drive innovation, problem-solving, and ultimately lead to a more successful business landscape.

Navigating the intricate world of leadership, we discuss how balancing internal and external perspectives can fortify psychological safety and resilience within organizations. Highlighting the importance of human qualities like vulnerability and cultural intelligence, we underscore how these assets contribute to better leadership and a healthier work environment. Through Ernesto Sorelli’s captivating hippo story, we illustrate the underestimated power of active listening and its critical role in effective leadership. This chapter is a testament to the necessity of blending business acumen with people skills to create a holistic leadership approach.

Embracing positivity and happiness is not just a personal mantra but also a professional strategy. Drawing from Sarah Tate's "The Rebuilders" and real-world examples like the Biosphere Project, we explore how challenges and setbacks are essential for building resilience. Amanda introduces Ruby Wax's insights on negativity bias, explaining how a positive mindset can significantly reduce stress and foster a more resilient organization. Philippa shares inspiring stories from her book launch, emphasizing the importance of pushing boundaries and stepping outside comfort zones to achieve meaningful growth. We wrap up with reflections on the role of happiness in leadership, offering practical advice on cultivating a positive, resilient workplace. Tune in to discover how you can transform your leadership style and business approach by prioritizing humanity and happiness.

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Speaker 1:

Angela Malik. With an ever-changing world of technological progress and unprecedented challenges, it's easy to lose our sense of humanity. Businesses traditionally focus on achieving the best return on investment, but future success is actually measured by return on humanity. This is the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr Amanda Potter, chartered Psychologist and CEO of Zircon. I'm Angela Malik, and today we've invited Philippa White, founder and CEO of Thai Leadership, to share leadership lessons learned from all corners of the world from her recently published book Return on Humanity. Welcome, philippa.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me. It's really lovely to be here.

Speaker 1:

And welcome Amanda. Thank you so much for having me. It's really lovely to be here. And welcome Amanda. Thank you very much. So, philippa, let's dive right in. What would you say is the real essence of your book.

Speaker 2:

I would say the real essence of the book is going back to how traditional business has run and seen business, which is where it's only been focused on profit. I remember at business school I'm going to go straight into a story and I remember sitting in this auditorium. I mean it's quite funny when you think about it, but actually I'm pretty sure this kind of stuff still happens. Everyone was day trading as well, which is just totally insane. So we're in university, we're sitting in the classroom, people are day trading. They're sort of fist pumping because they just made you know some crazy amount of money and the professor wanted to get everyone's attention and he said Come on, come on, what's the main goal of business? And everyone had to chant to make money.

Speaker 2:

And this was a while ago Now, I hadn't had tons of business experience, but it felt wrong.

Speaker 2:

And now that I have been working in the area that I've been working in for so long and see just how beneficial it is when people or businesses don't just focus on the money, but when they focus on the people, the money follows. And so obviously for my book Return on Humanity, it's a play on the people, the money follows. And so obviously for my book Return on Humanity, it's a play on that word, which is, you know, return on investment. When we understand that people, when they're happy, they are 400% more innovative and creative and able to problem solve, which we can imagine, because, you know, if we think about that, our brains open up. We think clearer when we are happy, when we're excited, when we're involved in something, and businesses that are more human centered are 32% more competitive, more profitable. So I just started diving into all of this and my book is basically a whole load of stories that prove that when you focus on people, then, yes, your businesses are more successful.

Speaker 4:

And for all of the reasons that I talk about, which I also noticed that Michael from Santander. He also wrote a post on LinkedIn about it, which was really lovely. The first sentence in the book is kindness is one of the greatest superpowers in the world, as is humility, and, as many of the listeners know, we've already done a podcast on kindness and I couldn't agree more. And I thought, when you were just about to tell the story there, philippa, around university, I thought you were going to tell the other story you told me, which was around.

Speaker 2:

I have another story, I have many.

Speaker 4:

Do you want to tell that second story which really shows?

Speaker 2:

the difference on environment and culture and kindness. Yeah, and that brings us actually into, because I think people who are listening, people who are running P&Ls, people who feel the pressure, it's very easy for people to say yes, but kind of, yeah, it's nice to just focus on, but you know, at the end of the day I just need to make a whole lot of money. But when the focus really is just focused on that, so if you're just making a whole lot of money, then what isn't happening? So there's competition, people are feeling sort of the pressure. And at business school we were marked on a bell curve. We had these 48-hour reports and we had exams, and so 50% of your mark was on these 48-hour reports and 50% of your mark were these exams. And so just already, within the culture of the business school there wasn't collaboration, there wasn't working together really, other than these 48-hour reports. But even those were really quite stressful and so there wasn't this sort of safe environment.

Speaker 2:

And I remember, first of all I went to university in Winnipeg, manitoba, which is this lovely province in Canada, and then I went to business school in Ontario and it's sort of this competitive environment, and when I was at university in Winnipeg we had table buddies and so we would sit beside the other person and, as the professor was speaking, if you lost your way, you would just go to your table buddy and you'd say, oh shoot, I missed that, what did she say? And they'd say no, no, no, hear my notes. And they'd show your notes. You're sort of frantically writing down whatever you missed and then you sort of, ok, I'm back, thank you, thank you, thank you. And then you sort of keep going and it's this collaborative environment which, when I think back to my university days at that university in Winnipeg I think about, I'm actually covered in goosebumps, like I think back and it very fondly and it was this lovely environment.

Speaker 2:

When I think about my business school days, I just remember this story. I remember sitting, we had computers. I was beside my table buddy and I remember it was management science and I never really was very good at management science I still can't really figure it out and so I remember I was like what is this? I had to go. Oh, my God, I have no idea. And I just looked over to her and I said, oh, sorry, I missed that. And rather than because you're a grown computer, so rather than turning the computer so you could see the screen a little bit better, because we were beside each other. She turned the computer in the way, so I could only see the back of the screen I was like what.

Speaker 2:

And the thing is this was not an exam, I wasn't cheating off of her, it was a class where I just could not keep up with the management science. And that was a sudden aha moment of I'm not in Kansas anymore, I'm not in, I'm not in Kansas anymore, I'm not in, I'm not in Winnipeg, manitoba anymore. But for me that was so telling of the type of environment that when you only focus on return on investment or, in this case, sort of on grades, bell curves, competition if that's the kind of environment that you're cultivating you create very unpsychologically safe environments where people don't trust one another, where people don't feel creative and safe and innovative. Did I feel like I thrived at that business school? Without question, no way I did.

Speaker 2:

Okay, but I certainly wasn't my best self by any stretch of the imagination. Was I my best self at the University of Winnipeg? 100%. And so then you just think, if you're cultivating environments that are creating that type of culture, that isn't creating psychologically safe environments, that isn't creating happy environments, what is happening to the output of your people? And if we know that people are basically what you have to run your business, you're kind of fighting a losing battle really.

Speaker 4:

It's so interesting because we've just worked with a client who have a real focus on league tables, on rag status, and they do a huge amount of tracking and monitoring for sales and targets across 37 to 39 different sites.

Speaker 4:

So really important for each of these managers of these sites to achieve certain targets and they're put into a rank order so they're assessed against one another and what it does is it creates a sense of internal competition. What was really interesting when we did the assessments across this population is the reluctance to share so that they don't learn from one another, because of course they'd be worried if they share too much that it's going to impact their relative standing in terms of their status on that league table. So I completely agree that internal competition can have a really detrimental effect and what we were looking at with that organization was, interestingly, psychological safety. So the conundrum for that company was that they are a very nice organization, a really great place to work around their values, yet at the same time, because they are private equity owned, they're also very ambitious and they're an incredible client, incredible organization to work with. Yet they have created, through their monitoring and tracking approach, a sense of internal competition which creates that reluctance to share and to learn.

Speaker 2:

And it's an interesting balance. And I almost want to put the question to you because I wonder you know to have ambition. I mean you want to have ambition, but the question is, is it ambition at the expense of others, or is having ambition innately wired to be at the expense of others? I mean, I don't see ambition as a negative thing and I would like to think that I'm not sort of one of those people that's kind of, you know, out of the way everyone.

Speaker 2:

I'm out of the way I need to get to the top.

Speaker 3:

You know the pointy elbows thing.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. But I'm just curious from companies is it possible to have a company that fosters healthy ambition and drive without having a psychologically unsafe environment?

Speaker 1:

I would imagine actually and I'm sure Amanda will have plenty more to say that it comes down to another psychological safety principle of shared purpose. If everyone has a shared purpose of an ambitious target and they're pulling together as a team, that's a different feeling and that's not competitive internally then. But I'm sure Amanda has way more to say on that Always got something to say.

Speaker 4:

Interestingly. I do think purpose is important, as is trust, because we know they're the two foundations of psychological safety. Purpose is important, as is trust, because we know they're the two foundations of psychological safety. But for me, for this one, I think it's about having an internal versus an external perspective. Very often when we do company audits of their top talent and look at their criteria for success, one of the things that come out quite low quite often in terms of those capabilities is a broad, macro, external perspective.

Speaker 4:

Very often, when the pressure builds, people start to get that tunnel vision we know that from our resilience research and they get very inward looking. So if we're creating a sense of internal competition, the natural place we're going to look is internally. We're going to not look at what the competitors are doing and not going to look at the economy or the political landscape. We're going to look at what our peers are doing and try to get ahead of them. So what I think it is, angela, is it's a story around that intersection between psychological safety and resilience and the fact that we get that very tunnel or narrow perspective during that situation and what we start to do is think in a very micro way. We deal very much with the immediate situation in front of us and we fail to think in a macro way and consider what's happening outside. So I think it's a result of the situation.

Speaker 2:

It's so interesting because obviously, most of my work is basically focused on creating these perspectives and these outside-in perspectives, and I haven't actually talked about it in those terms, but it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

Thinking about the book now again. I've read a lot of it myself. Now I'm on that last section, as I told you before we started Philippa and it's really excellent. I noticed that the book is structured in three sections. Why did you structure it that way and what's the purpose?

Speaker 2:

It's a really good question and I'm glad you noticed Basically my business. First of all, I'll explain it in these terms, which I think is important my business, which is tight leadership. The tagline is better leaders, better companies, better world. I believe that better companies are more human companies, like we've just talked about earlier, and in order to get to better companies, you need to have better leaders. And when I talk about better leaders, I do mean leaders that are able to tap into those human assets that I talk about in the book, those human assets of things like kindness and vulnerability and cultural intelligence and flexibility and vulnerability, and those create those human cultures that then create more human environments, which then create better companies, which then are proven to create a better world. Now, that would be why I've separated it that way.

Speaker 2:

There's another method to my madness, and I do believe that these human assets, through culture, through education, through family dynamics, through convention, through business, the permission to tap into these human assets has kind of been educated out of us and back to things like business school, for example. You're taught that aggression and competition is everything, but these what we would call softer skills aren't considered as important. I would say that they are a lot more important. In fact, they are everything, and the question would actually then be who's teaching these skills? But anyway, that aside, so before we are leaders and before we are running companies, we are people. We're human beings who have families and we interact with people, and I'm trying desperately in my book to bring everything back to the beginning, kind of back to these human assets that literally every single person on this planet has. No matter how much money you have, where you come from, where you sit in society, it doesn't matter. Everyone has them. And actually I just want to give people't matter. Everyone has them and actually I just want to give people the permission to tap into them, because once you do tap into them, suddenly life is so much better.

Speaker 2:

And so the first section is talking about the individual. It's not even leaders yet, it's just you might be the CEO of a company, but you're a father or you're a husband or you're a brother, or you're a husband or you're a brother, or you're a wife, or you're a sister or you're a mother or whatever it is that you're doing, but you are a person, and for some weird reason, people then put on their business hat and go in to run a business and the conversations that they have with their five-year-old suddenly changes, because suddenly there's a P&L involved and everything becomes slightly robotic and slightly psychopathic. And so I'm just suggesting that let's go back, remind ourselves that the interactions as individuals are so much better when we tap into these human assets and just imagine how powerful business can be and leadership can be if you tap into those as leaders in business. And then we talk about the impact on the world. So there's the three sections.

Speaker 4:

Really interesting. Do you know what? The point you've just made about the difference between business skills versus people skills is really important, and I'm working with a client at the moment where their most executive team all have a business coach. Now that business coach is all about return on investment, profit, growth, business strategy goals, aspirations, etc. And I'm working with that organization and I'm challenging them to say that, whilst they want to continue working with a business coach and I completely agree, because a business coach has value to an organization of its kind actually the leaders would also benefit from a people-based coach, an executive coach from a psychology perspective or a counseling perspective or one of those coaching perspective. So both is really important, actually, so that you understand things like culture, intelligence, which you raise beautifully in the book, and the other one is listening. It's a skill which is really underrated, and I love the hippo story, which I hadn't heard before, but I shared it with a friend who had heard about it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's. It's Ernesto Sorelli, I think is his last name, and it's a TED Talk. You need to watch it, yeah.

Speaker 4:

I hadn't heard about it until I read your book and then I was like that's such a brilliant story. Do you mind just telling everybody about that story? So?

Speaker 2:

this story basically, is rooted in showing up, and we talk a lot about the importance of collaboration and bringing in different voices, but I think many times people, they have amazing ideas and they're full of enthusiasm and they kind of are a little bit like a bull in a china shop, and this example just shows what happens when you might perhaps not involve people in the best possible way. There was a group of Italian engineers. They were keen to teach Zambian people how to grow food. So they arrived with their Italian seeds in southern Zambia in a beautiful valley that stretched to the Zambezi River, and they started to teach the local people how to grow Italian tomatoes and zucchinis and other vegetables. But the thing is the local people just weren't really that interested and the Italians couldn't really understand why. You know, it was a fertile valley and nothing was being grown there, and the Italians' minds are like these Zambian people are really missing out, and they basically demonstrated to the Zambians you know, guys, this is really easy.

Speaker 2:

Look how lucky you are to have us here to help. You see the way. Thank God, we've come just in the nick of time to save the Zambian people from starvation. But then, one fateful day, it all became clear. So all the food was ready. There were beautifully red tomatoes and gorgeous zucchinis. 200 hippos came out of the river and ate everything. My God, the hippos, exclaimed.

Speaker 2:

The Italians Well, yeah, that's why we have no agriculture here, said the Zambians. But why didn't you tell us, asked the Italians. Well, because you never ask. And again, why did that not work? Well, the Zambians never felt part of this initiative. There was no trust there, there was no involvement. The Italians had this brilliant idea, just imposed it on a completely different group of people and they weren't even part of that initiative. I mean, it's a funny story and it obviously really did happen. So if you watch the TED Talk from Ernesto, it's really funny and it's been seen millions of times, but it really is a fantastic example of this kind of stuff happens all the time, it happens in our daily lives. I mean, if we can think about it, we force things on our kids or our partners or whatever, and you suddenly realize why did that just blow up and not go very well?

Speaker 4:

You're like oh yeah, because I didn't involve them in it, you know when I first read that section and read that story it was amazing, which is why I brought it up. But the point that they said, because you've never asked, said the Zambians, but they never said, I was kind of flummoxed a little bit. But why didn't you just say, rather than waiting to be asked? That was the bit I was flummoxed about, but it did suggest that there wasn't a true conversation, that the respect was missing. Somebody would just surely just explain there's no point. Rather than letting the Italians go through all the hard work of planting, they let them learn the lesson the hard way, which I found was an interesting approach to it.

Speaker 2:

This happens all the time in the area that I work. Obviously I connect the private sector with the third sector, so non-governmental nonprofits, non-governmental organizations, and in that world of international development there's loads of consultants. You know they also work in the area of international development, but they come over, they parachute in, they know everything that needs to be done in the area of whatever it might be education or human rights or water area, of whatever it might be education or human rights or water management or whatever it might be. But you can imagine that feeling of, oh, they're here again, they're going to be talking down to us, they're going to be sort of telling us how we should be living our lives in this reality without trying to gain the trust of the people on the ground.

Speaker 2:

And so often decisions are made from London or New York for people or organizations or communities in other parts of the world where they don't know the local realities. And it's that dynamic that it happens in this world. But it happens so often in the corporate world. We know, you know head office in London making decisions for the satellite offices in other parts of the world and they're sort of that oh, it's London on the call again. It happens all the time and it's figuring out how to create those relationships and how to build those relationships. And what is the essence of that?

Speaker 4:

Do you know what?

Speaker 4:

I had a client just recently who we identified a psychological safety risk which was about overly trying to seek consensus, because this individual is senior and has to manage the relationship between her senior leaders in the UK and then group which is in another country I won't say which country because it'd be identifiable probably as one of my clients but has to manage that relationship and compromise a lot.

Speaker 4:

And I really don't like the word compromise it's one of the words I try not to use because I don't think it's a good word or a good approach but her life is spent trying to create a sense of compromise. And what is really interesting is that another client that I've just worked with what we did is we ran a workshop, an event, and we were trying to create an environment of listening, but we did it by creating appreciation. So we use the Nancy Klein time to think approach, which of course I love and I've mentioned many times on the podcast. But what I asked each leader to do is, after the first person has spoken, the second person had to say what they appreciated about what that person had said, before then saying what they were going to say and at the end, the leader in the room had to say what he appreciated about what everybody had said, and then he commented. So learning to listen and learning to appreciate each other's views is so important, but I felt what was missing in the Zambian example was asking questions.

Speaker 2:

And listening to the answers, asking questions and then actively listening to the answers and reading between the lines.

Speaker 1:

I think that comes down to a little bit of cultural intelligence, which is another point that you raise in your book. You've got to include some of that in your thinking as well, especially if you're going to go across borders.

Speaker 2:

Totally and actually just very quickly bringing this back again to the return on humanity. But you still see the investment there. In situations of negotiation, for example, to be a really good negotiator, the key is empathy. It's understanding that person that you're talking to. It's asking a lot of questions, it's listening to the answers and it's finding that understanding where that other person genuinely feels like you get them, and if you really master that, then actually you can negotiate really really well. The problem is many times people just coming at each other and incredibly aggressive, and if you really master that, then actually you can negotiate really really well. The problem is many times people just coming at each other and incredibly aggressive and that doesn't help anyone, and so, again, it's really tapping into these human assets which in so many parts of business negotiation being one of them hands down.

Speaker 4:

There are so many great points in your book, genuinely, and so many great stories Interestingly. I think the stories are great because they're varied. I mean the toilet seat, the loo one that's my, maybe a low point.

Speaker 3:

I did warn people. I'm like, just so you know you might want to skip this one.

Speaker 4:

There's some high points too, and actually I'm changing the subject now because there is another high point. For me, one of the brilliant things is there were so many brilliant aha moments and maybe it's a bit of a bias on my side because it validated my thinking and a lot of my research as I was going through. So of course, I liked it because I was like, yes, I agree, but the one I'm thinking about at the moment is the Biosphere 2 project and the trees, and there was just a brilliant quote in there, which I'll come to.

Speaker 2:

But would you mind just telling that story, philippa? Yeah, I mean this. Actually, this also was inspired by a friend of mine's book, actually Sarah Tate. She wrote a book called the Rebuilders and it's focused on just the importance of constraints and the importance of challenges and resistance to be able to grow and to be strong and to have those setbacks that then make you even stronger.

Speaker 2:

This example comes from the Biosphere Project, which is in the US, if I'm not mistaken, and they were doing these tests to see if they can grow trees faster, so they create this biosphere and these trees actually were growing a lot faster, so they were in this sort of sheltered environment and they were getting very big very fast.

Speaker 2:

But then they recognized that they weren't very strong and actually they couldn't withstand strong winds and they didn't have that core strength. And it was just such a beautiful analogy for us and how sometimes we feel that these setbacks and these knockbacks and these challenges and these obstacles and all of these challenges that we face throughout our lives, yes, they really suck at the time and it takes a lot of strength to be able to overcome, but we do come out stronger as a result and the more you face those challenges, the more you've discovered those tools and abilities to overcome them and those ways that you become more resilient and the tools that help you. And it's not to say that you're not going to feel that challenge, but you're not going to be blown over by it in the same way that had you not faced those challenges.

Speaker 4:

I think that point, that stress would I think, was the phrase you put in the book so interesting, because I think it's the same with us as humans. We need to fail to learn to understand how to deal with stress in the future. If we have this very coveted, protected life, then when we're faced with difficulty, we don't have the coping mechanisms to get ourselves through it, but yet our brains encourage us to avoid admitting any mistakes, and the brains look for simplicity and predictability, and so our natural bias is to not fail to not approach any situation where we may be seen to be silly in any way, but actually it's important for us to do so. So we have to tell ourselves to progress persist in spite of it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, I love that story as well.

Speaker 1:

Philippa, I love all of the examples in your book. It's loaded with stories and anecdotes and also research and just example after example of positive mindset and human assets. Amanda, did you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 4:

For me, this, one's really important, actually, because the brain is naturally wired towards negativity, and I heard a great analogy, which was in a Ruby Wax book actually, which I was recommended by a friend, Jess, so I've listened to her latest book on Audible. There was a brilliant point in there around negativity bias, that when we hold on to memories or emotions, 80% of the emotions and memories we hold on to are negative and 20% are positive. And Ruby Wax mentioned a therapist I can't remember the therapist's name, but they likened those negative thoughts and emotions to Velcro, that they're very sticky, whereas the positive emotions and thoughts are like Teflon, they just slip straight out. And it really made me think then reading your book, philippa, because the whole point around positive attitude, positive thinking, positive mindset, and that when we have that approach, that it reduces stress, it helps us to create greater resilience, we're able to cope with difficulty and adversity. We know from our research that resilient leaders create psychologically safe environments and therefore the ability to transmit and translate those thoughts into positive emotions and positive dialogue inside our heads is so important. Yet our natural bias, our natural way of thinking, so important. Yet our natural bias, our natural way of thinking, the way our brains work, is negative because it's about keeping us safe. So therefore it takes a huge amount of energy and practice in order to take that approach, to have that approach, and we know Sarah's mum bless her who's left the earth.

Speaker 4:

Penny was just the most incredible person around positive mindset and she lived that approach. And she, despite a number of illnesses, was the most incredible person around positive mindset and she lived that approach. And she, despite a number of illnesses, was the most incredibly positive human being and so therefore created this positive home and energy around her and people gravitated towards her as a result. I see that, as well as Penny in the personal life. I see that in businesses, too, certain people have the ability to create this positive environment and positive energy. So I'm really delighted it's in the book, but it's one of those. It's tough. It's a tough thing to do.

Speaker 2:

It is a tough thing to do, and I think it's really important to just also just understand how your positivity, or how you are, impacts those around you, and if you're happy, people around you are happy too, and I think it then takes it away from just us and helps us recognize that it's almost a responsibility that we have. And it's probably not a surprise then that the American Chamber of Commerce in Brazil have their CEO forum every year in June. So they go around all the states around Brazil and they have a conference and they talk to all of the big business. There's up to about 400 people that go to each of these conferences and I've been asked to speak at four of them.

Speaker 4:

Amazing.

Speaker 2:

And so I'm being yeah, it's cool, so I'm being thrown around, thrown around around around Brazil.

Speaker 2:

But the theme is happiness. And it's interesting actually, because to this point, you can talk about things like meditation and flexible working and all that kind of stuff. But you know, happiness is such a force and it is so important from the point of view of everything that we're talking about today, from a point of view of return on humanity, but also the importance of when you're happy, other people around you are happy too. What is the impact on a team if people feel that you trust them? If you're happy and you trust them, you give them space. They then grow into that space. They are then happy, they then feel fulfilled. I mean, it's this sort of self-perpetuating force. And if we don't just take stop for a moment and reflect on the importance of this force and very easily get sucked into this natural negativity, just think of what that then looks like. Right?

Speaker 4:

What I love about this is that, as human beings, we can spot when someone is fake happy or whether they really are happy.

Speaker 4:

So if you come to work with a smile plastered all over your face and the smile doesn't reach your eyes, we can see it, we can spot it, and so we know actually if someone is just playing a role or whether someone is truly contented and happy from the inside. And what I love about psychology and I love about the neuroscience is the fact that the habits that we have on a day-to-day basis, the actions that we take, from the very moment that we wake up in the morning to the point of us going to sleep at the end of the day, has an impact on how happy we feel. So we know, for example, that we can increase the amount of dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin all of those loving neurotransmitters, how much we release, which creates that sense of happiness, that feeling that we interpret 200 of a millisecond later as an emotion. So, therefore, if we want to be happy individually, as colleagues, as people, as leaders, then we just need to find the habits that will help us release the neurotransmitters and chemicals and hormones that will create that sense within us. And so we are chemical human beings and we're in control.

Speaker 4:

Yet, you know, one of the other points you put in the book is around that sense of blame. Again, we've done a podcast on overcoming blame culture, which was a really interesting one, and also one on bullying and that point that when people are particularly feeling low, bullying. And that point that when people are particularly feeling low, they get very inward looking and focus on themselves, to the detriment of other people actually, but when we're happy and contented, we focus more on other people rather than ourselves.

Speaker 2:

To this point again. It's interesting because with anything that we're talking about, so to be happier, to focus on the positive sides of anything that's happening, if we're facing a challenge, to be able to work through that, to be able to grow, you need to push yourself into uncomfortable situations to be able to see yourself and the world differently. You have to make a conscious effort to do these things. I mean, that's why I do what I do. You know, I have this leadership development program that basically provides opportunities for professionals to be pushed in different ways and to see themselves in different ways. Because if we remind people of the nuances within life that we can't forget, because if we don't do it, it's the same thing. I mean, it's the the typical.

Speaker 2:

When you're feeling a bit down, make sure you do go for that walk or you do go for that run, if you had it planned. Don't stay at home because it's not going to help. You're going to feel better. It's if you're feeling down. Community is so important. Pick up the phone or reach out, do a podcast or, you know, have a, have a conversation with somebody, talk to somebody, because the moment that you have that conversation, your brain just starts working in a different way.

Speaker 4:

It releases masses. It's amazing, isn't it? The firing.

Speaker 2:

Huge, it is so powerful and the thing is is, but you have to be reminded that you just need to do that, you know be curious, ask questions, do something that I mean it's a bit cliche, but do something that scares you every day. Well, actually, david Bowie, I talk about it in my book as well that the beginner's mind and that importance of doing things where your feet aren't quite touching the ground, you're a little bit uncomfortable, you're feeling a bit nervous, you're not quite in your zone of comfort, but that's the best place, because that's where you grow, that's where you see things differently, that's where you feel excited and I think it's finding these. It doesn't have to be massive things, but it's finding these opportunities.

Speaker 1:

I think it draws on the example you put in your book of Goya, the Spanish painter, as well, that on the top of his painting near the end of his life, he wrote that he was still learning. Really inspiring.

Speaker 2:

It is. And I just think again, like, even with that, it's so easy, once you become an expert, once you become a senior individual in whatever it is that you do, you sort of comfortably fall into an environment where you have the answers and people come to you and it's very easy to then just fall into that environment where you feel that you know what you need to know, but actually there's probably a lot that you don't know, and actually it's a very powerful force to be able to say that you don't know and actually to say I need to keep learning, I want to be curious, and actually there are people who can do things that I can't do and then giving them the space to be able to grow into that.

Speaker 1:

So we've had a lot of examples today, a lot of stories, a lot of practical tips that people could probably already draw out of the conversation we've had. But, in a nutshell, is there any practical advice that you would put out to the listeners today, philippa?

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, we're talking about things like curiosity and we're talking about things about listening, which Amanda talked about earlier. You know, I think the very basic things to kind of keep us interested and interesting and to keep those hormones of happiness going. You know, be curious, ask a lot of questions the next time you're in a taxi or an Uber, strike up a conversation, find out something new about somebody that comes from a totally different background, and you'll be surprised, actually, at just how interesting that background is. I think it's actively listening, asking questions, but then actively listening to the answers and find something. You know, if someone asks you to do something and your initial response is oh no, I can't do that, oh no, I'm probably not the right person for that, give it a try. Say yes, see what happens.

Speaker 2:

Sir John Hegarty, he's one of my advisors, he was at the book launch the other day, but he has this great phrase which is do interesting things and interesting things will happen to you. I think it is such a good mantra to go through life, because when you say yes, when you ask those questions, when you push yourself to the edge of your mental map and gently push yourself off, your feet are not quite touching the ground. That is a place of excitement, and I think that is when you're happy, that is when you're discovering new things, that's when you're meeting new people and that's when you become more human.

Speaker 4:

I'm often happy once I've done those things and I'm, on reflection, thinking about them, because at the time they could be a bit scary when they're completely new. But yeah, I completely agree and, having been at the book launch, thank you very much. One of the things that I took away from there was your long-term friend and client, samantha Theobald, who's, I think, the CPO of Next 15. And she was talking about the importance of clarifying the six words to describe your purpose, and I asked you that question while you're on stand, and are you ready now to answer that question?

Speaker 3:

Yes, now I know what I would say. It was so funny. I was like Amanda talk about putting me in. It was so nice because, yeah, my friend, she was like, you do know it, I was like oh yeah, I do know it, but that was a great question. I love it.

Speaker 2:

I think the photographer actually managed to get a picture of you right at the moment where I was like Amanda, yeah, I think they did, and it was me giggling.

Speaker 3:

It was so funny.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you're like giggling at me, but yeah, so I mean I think the way I would summarize what I do is I do, I take people to the edge of their mental maps and I gently nudge them off, forcing an evolution. And that evolution is behavior change, and I do that in a number of ways, but it is all very much rooted in being more human and developing leaders and teams to develop those competencies which we know are just so important for business and do you know what?

Speaker 4:

You've answered that in way more than six words.

Speaker 4:

Yes you have, and since I've been to that session with you, I've been asking my team what are my six words? And I asked Candice, angela, antonia, sarah. I was like, what are my six words? Everybody has come back with completely different words and we just can't get there. I don't have six words. I've decided because I'm just no way near, because there's so many things that I do and I end up articulating it so similarly to you, Whereas your colleague and friend, samantha she articulated hers beautifully and I'm very envious, so I'm still going to work on it. So what are your six words to describe your purpose and the impact that you make? I think it's a great one for our listeners to play with for themselves too, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And to keep in mind that I think those six words will change. They're never static, right? So when I think about myself, what are my six words Right now? I have a really hard time articulating that because I feel like I've only recently become a mother, even though I've got a 14 month old now, but I feel like that transition hasn't fully come through. So, yeah, you have to kind of sit and think how does that affect my six words? Does that actually affect it? Is my impact different now? Because I have a different flavor of empathy to bring to my perspective. I feel I was very empathetic before too, but it's just, it's a different perspective, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Well, just to compliment that, I would say that, absolutely, I think we are always evolving and I think purpose is often evolving. I think thinking that it's static, yeah, sort of influences around us.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely Well. Thank you, amanda and Philippa, and to everyone else who's been listening. It's been an excellent conversation. It's an excellent book. Where can our listeners get your book, philippa?

Speaker 2:

You can get it on Amazon. I do have a book page, returnonhumanitybookcom, or my website, thleadershipcom. You can find it there and then, if you click, then, depending on where you're listening, it will take you to your local shop, or you can get it at Waterstones. It's in Waterstones, it's in the bookshops, it's at Foils. So if you happen to be walking along the high street, then Piccadilly, trafalgar Square, charing Cross, I think Amazing. Philly, trafalgar Square, charing Cross, I think yeah.

Speaker 4:

Amazing.

Speaker 2:

And thank you for having me. I do want to just say I also have a podcast which is called Thai Unearthed. You can listen to Amanda's podcast there.

Speaker 3:

It was equally. I mean, I just loved it because I just we really riff and I just feel I could have conversations for a very long time with you, amanda. It's just amazing.

Speaker 2:

We just really sort of build off of it. It's just amazing, we just really sort of build off of it, and so I just really appreciate this, because it's a wonderful opportunity to just have a fun conversation, so thank you for having me.

Speaker 4:

And I would strongly recommend anyone who hasn't yet bought the book Return on Humanity by Philippa White. Brilliant book, lots of stories, but also some really brilliant tips in there too, which is just fab. And the last thing I was just going to say is if you like our podcast, please do share it with one friend and don't forget to hit the subscribe button. Thank you so much, philippa, and thank you, angela for being the host and thank you to all of our listeners. I hope you have a wonderful and successful day.

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Dr Amanda Potter

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Tim Hepworth

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Caitlin Cooper

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