Ep56 The Transformative Power of Kindness in Leadership

Have you ever noticed how a simple act of kindness can transform an entire day? 
Dr. Amanda Potter, CEO of Zircon, joins me, Caitlin, on a heart warming expedition through the corridors of compassionate leadership, discussing how friendship and empathy at the top echelons of a company can sculpt a culture of inclusivity and high performance. We navigate the delicate dance of accepting compliments with grace and delve into the science behind kindness, revealing how our brains can become hardwired for empathy through consistent, caring actions. 

Prepare to be enlightened on the nuances of kindness in the workplace, as Amanda and I unravel the threads that connect emotional intelligence to team dynamics and explore the inhibitors that can stifle our best intentions, from stress to unconscious biases. Through candid conversation and personal insights, this episode promises to leave you equipped with practical tools for nurturing an environment brimming with trust and belonging—one thoughtful gesture at a time. Join us and discover how to unleash the transformative power of kindness in your professional sphere, enhancing not just your work life but potentially every interaction you encounter.

Timestamps

Kindness

·       00:00 – Introduction to Kindness

·       01:01 – The best of frenemies

·       02:04 – Honesty; kindness in disguise

·       03:45 – Define kindness:

·       05:06 – It’s all connected; all it takes is to be kind

·       06:08 – Neuroscience!

·       07:17 – It’s far more complex than it looks…

Cruel to be kind

·       08:56 – Tales from the tube

·       09:39 – Gray matters

·       10:36 – Is it better to give than receive?

·       12:05 – Ice Breaker

·       12:47 – Stress: the killer of kindness

·       14:00 – A bias against bias

·       16:18 – I feel good about being good

Enjoy the little things in life

·       17:12 – Should I give Amanda compliments?

·       18:48 – Beyond the Videodrome

·       19:41 – The right environment is key

·       20:16 – Holding the door open

·       21:15 – Kindness is contagious

Customer Service 101

·       22:04 – Balance yourself and put a smile on your face

·       23:03 – The best of ourselves

·       24:37 – A charitable endeavor

·       25:07 – Listen.

·       27:31 – One act of random kindness at a time

·       28:05 – The end.

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Chapters

• 0:05 The Power of Workplace Kindness
• 13:06 Inhibitors of Kindness
• 17:46 The Power of Kindness at Work

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer, with Dr Amanda Potto, chartered Psychologist and CEO of Zircon, and I'm Caitlin, senior Consultant at Zircon. Today we have a lovely, positive topic which is all about kindness and gratitude. So welcome, amanda. What was it that prompted you to discuss this today?

Speaker 2: 0:25

So I think that kindness is often underrated at work. I don't think it's valued enough, I don't think we talk about it enough, and I was reflecting that I've never really seen kindness in companies, values models or corporate models or capability models, and I think that kindness is really core to really good, healthy working relationships and to belonging. So I thought it could be a good independent topic for the podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Yeah, we were actually running a workshop the other day and this came up, didn't it? We were talking about kindness and organizational values. Was there another recent conversation that you've had that made you think about that?

Speaker 2: 1:05

Well, it was quite a long time ago it was probably 10 years ago that I was challenged by my then mentor, who was a corporate financier, and her role was to help look at my business, at the financials, at our operating model, and to challenge my thinking and to educate me in being an entrepreneur and running a business. And the thing she challenged me the most on, and she was the most unhappy with, was the fact that my co-director, is my best friend.

Speaker 2: 1:32

She felt that that was instead of the greatest strength to our business. She felt that that was one of the greatest weaknesses and I challenged her back because of the fact Sarah and I are lifelong best friends. It means that there's an inherent kindness in what we both do for one another, for the business, for our team, because we fundamentally care, and that kindness, I hope is kind of experienced throughout the business. She was a brilliant corporate financier. She was a brilliant mentor from a business perspective, but I didn't quite agree with her on the kindness point.

Speaker 1: 2:04

So was. The risk that she foresaw was that you may end up being too nice to each other and, as a result, not able to appropriately challenge each other when needed. Is that what she was challenging, I suppose, in your friendship?

Speaker 2: 2:16

I think so and I think the truth is that because we're best friends, actually there's times that Sarah is much, much more blunt and much, much more direct with me than she would be with somebody else, because she knows I can take it and she knows that I will always see that her trust, that her intention is good, that she wants us to be successful, she wants the team to be successful.

Speaker 2: 2:37

So, whilst I don't necessarily appreciate in that moment the feedback or the experience, actually I think it's kind to be honest, to be direct. She doesn't hide things or protect things that need talking about. Actually, it's made me think also, caitlin, about the other story we told about on the Burnout podcast right at the beginning, which I mentioned that because I'd experienced burnout and I get alopecia and I had a really terrible experience, that Sarah protected me for a number of months, if not years, from the really tricky conversations and the tricky moments. And that came from a position of kindness, because she knew that, because I had burnt out and that my resilience was low, that I had a real fight or flight response adrenaline, cortisol response to any small stressful situation. And that wasn't necessarily just led by her from a business critical perspective. It was led from a kindness perspective because she knew I needed to heal and I needed to grow again, and so I think kindness is fundamental.

Speaker 1: 3:35

And there's that element of care and having a genuine care for the people that you're working with day to day, obviously, especially if you're working kind of full-time hours or you seeing someone for a large majority of your day. So how do you define kindness and what is the angle you wanted to take with it in today's podcast?

Speaker 2: 3:52

Well, kindness is actually quite a complex concept when you start looking at it, because it's characterised by compassionate, pro-social behaviours, and so when we think about kindness, some of the things we often think about are acts of generosity, empathy, altruism, which is a really brilliant topic all by itself, that position of doing something completely for the other person's benefit without even thinking about your own. Are we ever truly altruistic? It's about the consideration of well being for others, but it also makes me think about other models and other research around courageous leadership, compassionate leadership, radical candour and those sorts of things too. So kindness, I believe, is at the core of quite a few of the models we're talking about, the concepts we're thinking about. So I don't think it's as simple as a unitary, single concept. I think there's many parts to it.

Speaker 1: 4:44

And I guess it also can manifest in various forms for thinking about in the workplace as well, from simple gestures to more significant acts of selflessness and support.

Speaker 2: 4:55

And depending on how we're feeling, our propensity to be kind can really change. So if I'm really stressed I may not be able to find that kindness as easily as if I'm happy, for example.

Speaker 1: 5:07

I suppose we're talking about this today because I think kindness is core to many of the positive relationship aspects of resilience, psychological safety and inclusions all things that we're regularly talking about within our business, but also with our clients, and if we think about each one of those, we're more likely to experience positive effects if people are kind and we're more likely to be positively connected, which is core to psychological safety. And then, finally, if we are kind, we're more likely to feel included and include others.

Speaker 2: 5:36

I think that's the absolute crux of this, isn't it? Those topics that we talk about psych safety, resilience, inclusion they are the vehicles for high performing teams, for high performing organisations, and at the very centre of those is kindness. If someone has a negative intention or is not altruistic or only wants to do something for their own gain, then those organisations are not going to create an environment of any of those three things resilience, inclusion, psych safety. So I think it's really fundamental to all of the models we're talking about.

Speaker 1: 6:08

Kindness can manifest in various forms. So we've got the more simple gestures of politeness, you know, holding a door open for someone in the office two more significant acts of selflessness and support. When I think of an example of those more selfless acts, we actually, when we talk about resilience again going back to resilience and the coping mechanisms we suggest that actually, if someone finds themselves experiencing the more self-indulgent behaviors like dwelling on you know why do bad things tend to always happen to them we would suggest do an act of selflessness and why don't you go try some voluntary work, because the experience of supporting others can have a positive effect on us and how we're operating. Can you talk us through the neuroscience behind what's happening when we do that?

Speaker 2: 6:51

We should definitely talk about the neuroscience of kindness, because the activities in the brain really confirm that kindness is something that helps us to feel good, to feel positive about ourselves, in the environment we're in and in the teams we're in, and it helps to build a sense of belief and self-confidence, which is a real basis of courage and conviction and determination. If we could lead with kindness, we're not only helping the other person, but we're helping ourselves.

Speaker 1: 7:18

So what is actually happening in the brain then?

Speaker 2: 7:20

So imagine that I do something really kind for you, caitlin. I look out for you. What will happen is that I will activate specific brain regions. So the first one is the striatum, which is linked to reward processing. It's often engaged during those acts of kindness and it indicates that the brain perceives this type of behavior is intrinsically rewarding and so it signals that kindness is a rewarding system. So it's that dopamine motivation reward system that's being activated.

Speaker 2: 7:52

In addition, the prefrontal cortex, which we hear about a lot, in particular the ventromedial prefrontal cortex it's implicated in the social decision making and processing of rewards when we're in that social context. So it helps us to make the decision, because the prefrontal cortex is all about decision-making, problem-solving. The prefrontal cortex helps me make a decision on whether I should or should not be kind in that situation. Should I bother to help somebody? If I'm on a bus and someone's struggling, do I help them, for example, or do I make a choice not to? Interestingly, when we're distracted, stressed, anxious, if I was on the train or on the bus and somebody needed help and I was completely wrapped up in my own concerns and my own worries, I'm probably not going to pay attention to or realize that person needed help and I'm unlikely to go to a position of kindness. A person might be too self-absorbed in that scenario and so therefore they're not activating the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, because they're stressed, because they're anxious, because they're worried. So we're less likely to be kind potentially in those situations.

Speaker 1: 8:58

I can definitely relate to that. I mean, I was sat on the tube the other day but it was quite busy and someone was stood up and they had their arm in a sling and the feeling you get from, you know, getting off your seat and saying, oh please take my seat, and obviously they say yes or no. Either way you do get that sense of reward. And then also again when you're actually too stressed, you know, our brains are very preoccupied in those situations, so that doesn't necessarily surprise me. But that's made me think about, you know, in our previous episodes and just generally, when we talk about the neuroscience and we think about the Igmigdala as well as the prefrontal cortex and the relationship between the two. So how does practicing kindness, I suppose, affect the brain over time and maybe relate to those regions of the brain?

Speaker 2: 9:39

Such a good point you make because you're really talking about neuroplasticity now, aren't you? And the fact that the brain is constantly making new neural connections on the basis of our activities and our actions and our behaviors as we demonstrate or engage in acts of kindness. What happens is we structurally change the brain and we get increased gray matter density in the brain regions that are associated with empathy and emotional regulation when we continually or regularly practice kindness. So these structural changes may contribute to quite enduring positive impacts or effects on a person's emotional well-being. So, in other words, if we do things that are really kind and supportive and helpful for other people, what will happen is it means that we will enhance parts of the brain that help us to feel good and we'll get a positive affect ourselves and a positive emotional regulation and positive emotional well-being.

Speaker 1: 10:36

So are there differences in the brain's response to giving kindness versus receiving kindness?

Speaker 2: 10:41

So we've already talked about the giving kindness part. We talked about the striatum. So we talked about the fact that when we show kindness to someone else, what's happening is the ventral striatum is activated, which is linked to the dopamine system, and it's all about that brain reward center and the brain considers it to be intrinsically rewarding, which is great. But actually, on the other side, receiving kindness, that actually activates regions associated with emotions and emotion processing. So of course, that's the amygdala, which we talk about a great deal. That's also linked to gratitude too.

Speaker 2: 11:20

So when we feel gratitude and we express gratitude, we have a positive impact on the emotion center as well. And, as we've talked about many times, caitlin, I will use gratitude as a way of activating the positive neurotransmitters of serotonin, for example, because it helps me to feel good about my situation, my context, and it helps me to shrink in my mind the negative things that are really starting to build and put them back into perspective. So gratitude really works for me. I'll try and think of one to five things that I'm super grateful for and it puts those negative things back in their box and I get much better perspective again.

Speaker 1: 11:57

And actually that gratitude exercise is something that we like to use as an icebreaker in some of our client workshops, isn't it? I can see how it kind of comes into play.

Speaker 2: 12:05

And we used it this week, didn't we? With a client, and that was a brilliant one because it was workshop number two on psych safety. The team are pretty psychologically safe in reality, aren't they? Kaden, the one we were working with, we started with gratitude as the first exercise, and pretty much everybody in that room. One of the key things that they were grateful for was working in that team and for that organization, which I don't think I've heard before that there was such a sweeping acknowledgement and appreciation of each other and the organization, the respect they get from the company. It created a really great starting point for the conversation. It was very inclusive and very honest, wasn't it?

Speaker 1: 12:43

Yeah, it created kind of a positive environment from the start. So what's likely to hinder someone's ability to show kindness? I know we did mention earlier about stress and how our brains can come preoccupied when in some more stressful situations. So that would be my first guess. Is that correct and I don't know. Is there anything else that you can think of that can hinder someone's ability to show kindness?

Speaker 2: 13:04

Well, I think you've nailed it, kaden. I think that stress is the biggest thing that will have a detrimental impact on our ability to be kind both to ourselves and to others. I know when I'm stressed and when people I know who are close to me are stressed. That's when we are all at our worst at showing kindness to ourselves and to others. And because stress activates the fight or flight response from the amygdala and helps us to release cortisol, it can have an impact on the brain areas associated with empathy and social bonding. So high levels of stress means that we prioritize self-preservation over pro-social behaviors with other people and acts of kindness to ourselves. So we keep pushing and it links to that burnout conversation we've had in the past why burnout starts with a desire to prove oneself, because we lose that rationality and that judgment and the recognition. We just need to stop sometimes.

Speaker 1: 14:00

Yeah, I think that's definitely a good insight into some examples of what's going on in our brain. I suppose when we are in those stressful situations, Is there anything else that you can share with our listeners around. What might get in our way of being kind to others In the work context as well, I suppose, is a good place to think about.

Speaker 2: 14:19

I think the next one to think about is biases. I'm not saying that we are all biased all the time, but our brains, as we know, like to have simplicity, it likes predictability and, as a result, our brains have shortcuts and the shortcuts could be interpreted as biases, which means that we make these very quick decisions about people, about situations, and these cognitive biases for example, in group favoritism or negativity bias could potentially hinder kindness. So, acknowledging when we are not being fair to ourselves or to others, or we are heeding to those biases because we're in a hurry and not recognizing the need to actually challenge those shortcuts, is when there may be an impact on our ability to be kind.

Speaker 1: 15:07

I guess, to summarize, that that would be an instance where we show favoritism for people who we know and we work closely with within a team, or that we have similar skills to, and perhaps we're more critical of those who do not, and so those are the sort of situations we might find ourselves in in the day to day at work.

Speaker 2: 15:23

That's a really good point, isn't it? That if we feel like we connect with someone because we're similar to them, are we more likely to be kind to them because we are more comfortable with them and we acknowledge that we have similar thinking, similar ideas? And does that mean, therefore, that we are less predisposed to be kind with people who are not, because they're challenging our thinking, where, of course, we know from all of our research that we are at our best when we're operating and working with people who challenge our thinking, who help us to feel a bit more uncomfortable, because it helps us to think on the very brink of our own reality. But it would create stress, it would activate the adrenaline cortisol functions and release those chemicals. So I wonder If, therefore, we're not necessarily as prone to active kindness as a result.

Speaker 2: 16:14

I don't know the answer to that, but that's a really interesting point, Caitlin.

Speaker 1: 16:17

And actually, whilst you were saying that, I was thinking about if we were to think about the opposite. And actually if you see someone, whether it's inside or outside of work, that is actually quite different to you, If you are maybe really highly empathetic, you might actually kind of tune into that even more because you recognize that someone's quite different, and so in that situation we'd have an opposite effect. So I think there's definitely some sort of debate that must be around those two situations.

Speaker 2: 16:42

If we go back to the point around neuroplasticity, the kinder we are, the more often we show gratitude to ourselves and others. The more times that we're kind to ourselves and others, the more likely we are to create that neural system in the brain that can be more readily activated, and therefore it means we're more likely to be kind and to show gratitude in the future. So it's all about practicing. They say. Practice makes perfect, don't they? But actually, from a brain's perspective it makes it much easier to appreciate. There's a really interesting one you and I talked about earlier. Caitlin around, if I was to say something nice to you about you, do you want to tell that story?

Speaker 1: 17:19

Yeah. So I think a lot of people could probably relate to this is when someone pays you a compliment and a lot of people's immediate response is potentially to kind of resist it a bit and say oh no. But actually in that moment it's the kindest thing you could do in response actually is say you know, thank you very much for that, because actually it takes a lot for some people to give a compliment to someone else.

Speaker 2: 17:41

It does, doesn't it? And I'm horrible at receiving compliments. You gave me a compliment it was a walking back from a client site in Mayfair the other day to back to Victoria and you said something to me and I went oh you know, I kind of did this weird body language behavior. It almost took the compliment and I threw it away physically from you and from me because I was embarrassed because you said something lovely, rather than saying I need to practice just saying thank you and appreciating, because a I don't let it sink in. I'm too busy avoiding it to let it sink in. So I think that's a really, really good thing for people to take away, which is practicing accepting compliments.

Speaker 1: 18:18

And also for the record in those moments, you know, as someone who paid you the compliment and then you didn't necessarily say thank you, I didn't take any offense. I completely understand. I think most people can kind of relate in terms of it's uncomfortable sometimes to give compliments, receive compliments. It's just human nature, isn't it.

Speaker 2: 18:36

We are funny creatures. We spend all our life trying to look the best we can, be as healthy as we can be, the funniest that we can, and then when someone tells you that, you think, oh gosh, I feel very uncomfortable. So that's very funny.

Speaker 1: 18:48

So I'm interested in hearing a bit more around. Do virtual acts of kindness, so like sending a text message, have the same impact on the brain as an in-person act? So you know, opening a door, making someone a cup of tea, general acts of service.

Speaker 2: 19:01

I think they're the same. So the neurological impact of virtual acts of kindness is very similar to in-person acts of kindness. Of course, from a psychological perspective it's quite different because it's about the social context. The in-person interactions has many, many more sensory interactions, whereas the non-verbal it's quite simplistic, if you like, and therefore that's why when we receive an email, we make quicker judgments about it, because we don't have all of that context or those cues around context. But from a neurological perspective an act of kindness it activates the same regions of the brain in both situations.

Speaker 1: 19:40

What's the impact of kindness at work, then? What are the?

Speaker 2: 19:43

benefits. So there's lots of papers that have been published about this, so in Harvard Business Review, forbes have got some, the CEO magazine have got some, and kindness can really help organisations from a number of perspectives. The first one it's about creating the environment that will succeed Psychologically safe, thriving, inclusive, engaged environment, which, of course, will enhance productivity and it will help you to retain the right people in the organisation. So there are organisational reasons why kindness pays off at work.

Speaker 1: 20:16

So what's the key message then you want to leave for our listeners.

Speaker 2: 20:19

I think that people appreciate both small and large acts of kindness. It doesn't take very much to demonstrate a little bit of kindness at work. It could be that recognition, it could be giving a compliment, it could be offering to help someone. It could be simple as making a cup of tea or opening a door, which I do wonder if some men are worried about whether that might be the right thing to do for a woman to open a door, but I still like it.

Speaker 2: 20:41

Maybe it's because I'm in my fifties I still quite like it. I think it's rare, but it's lovely. In fact, I would do it for somebody if I was walking through a door open for them too. So it's just a simple act of kindness and I think that if we do those things, we're going to be the best versions of ourselves at work. I don't want to be prone to in-group, out-group bias or to let my biases get the best of me. I want to be kind indiscriminately to everybody and I want to create a sense of belonging and trust at work, and I think kindness is the key to that.

Speaker 1: 21:14

Well, they say, kindness is contagious, smiles are contagious. They do they do, don't they?

Speaker 2: 21:20

Yes, I believe so actually.

Speaker 1: 21:22

I do as well. If I was walking along the street and someone smiles at me, the first thing, especially in London no offense to Londoners, obviously I live here too but you know someone smiles at you. Sometimes you're a bit taken aback, but then you think, oh, that was really nice. And then you feel almost, oh, no, I didn't smile quick enough in return, and so I guess you mentioned some of the things that people can start to do. Is there anything else you'd add to that as a starting point for spreading kindness, perhaps in team meetings and that sort of thing that you can think?

Speaker 2: 21:48

of. I think it's a really good question, caitlin, because we have confirmed that it is good for people, it's good for teams and it's good for organisations to show kindness, and therefore, how can we make suggestions for how teams or individuals could demonstrate more kindness at work? So the first thing could be when you get to work very much on your story around walking down the road and someone smiling at you is to turn up either in person or virtually in your meetings with a smile on your face. You're going to create the right environment. The next one is about having the right balance of appreciation versus critical feedback. I've just read in the Nancy Klein Time to Think book which I, by the way, love she was talking about the ratio should be five to one. So there should be a five to one ratio of appreciation and compliments on somebody's work versus criticism, and that that's the right balance to have. So for every five compliments you give, you critique it once.

Speaker 1: 22:43

Is that also because of the negativity bias? So we're more likely to remember the negative criticism over the positive, and so that's why you want to outweigh it positive five to one.

Speaker 2: 22:51

Absolutely. And also you want to do some of that open, positive feedback as well. You want to express appreciation for people's work in a way that other people recognise it as well and can acknowledge it. So you don't just do it in private, you do it in open settings too.

Speaker 1: 23:05

You've actually just made me think of an exercise that is one of my favourites that we do with our clients and with teams, which is a strength gifting exercise, where the basics is getting everyone in the team to choose a top strength well, one for themselves, but more so for each team member and then you'd go around the room one by one and everyone would state why they chose that top strength for that team member and reveal it to everyone else. And it's a really nice way to start giving positive feedback publicly. And there's also a nice segue in that exercise where you can start to see how you see yourself versus how others see you when it comes to your strengths and also start to see do other people choose the same strengths for you? You know, is that an indication that you've got quite a strong brand around what your strengths are, or are you seen by different people differently and therefore you flex your approach? So it's a really nice one for one, just generally building team awareness and individual strength awareness, but also the positive feedback element publicly.

Speaker 2: 24:05

I completely agree. I think that exercise you just mentioned the strengths appreciation exercise that we use our VTAN Strengths Cards for, but you could do it in a number of different ways. I love the gratitude exercise we talked about before, but I think you ask the question of what else could we do. I think there's lots of simple things, which is about using positive and inclusive language. It's about being generous with your time. It's about making sure that people look after themselves at a healthy work-life balance, so encouraging people to take breaks, not to work all night Lots of things like that around the working life and the working environment. You mentioned volunteering earlier as well. The more we can volunteer and do things for others. That's helpful, because we were talking about your marathon, Caitlin, and the fact that you're currently looking for sponsorship for your marathon because you're supporting our nominated charity. You're doing something for someone else, which is brilliant. We want to help you get that sponsorship for it. Again, that's all down to acts of kindness at every level.

Speaker 1: 25:01

And again, it's rewarding, feeling like you are making a difference and you're giving back to communities.

Speaker 2: 25:07

The last one I wanted to share, which I've really been thinking about lately, is from the Nancy Klein book. Again, she says in her book that the biggest gift we can give to someone is to listen to them.

Speaker 2: 25:18

I think societally and professionally we are becoming rubbish at listening because, we're so distracted by technology, by how busy we are, it is such a skill to truly be present and to truly listen to somebody. We practiced this in a meeting last week with a client. We had the client come into our offices he and his number two from the team and he is somebody who's incredibly interesting. He likes to talk. Then I had myself, emily and Antonio in the meeting. So I made the decision to use the Nancy Klein approach in that meeting, which was I would chair and I was asked each person a question and whilst they're answering that question, nobody else can speak and you have to listen attentively and you can give nonverbal signals, but you can't interrupt or ask any additional questions. You just let them flow. And he spoke for 35 minutes from my one question and it was incredible, so incredible that his number two, who he's worked with for many years, said at the end of it oh my gosh, I've just learned so much.

Speaker 2: 26:15

I didn't know that all these new things connected. And the other three of us in our meeting from Zircon were just, of course, in awe, but it meant that the rest of our questions were really simple. Because he'd given such a brilliant summary For me, I felt like it was a real privilege to sit there and listen and I'm also a bit naughty for interrupting, being an extrovert, and also a bit naughty for wanting to having things in my head that I want to say, but because I gave everyone instructions not to speak but to truly listen, we all did and it was amazing. So for me that's another act of kindness that I'm really trying to practice personally and professionally, so at home and at work is being really present and really listening to people. I know as a coach I do it all the time, but in those 90 minutes in coaching that's what I do, but I may not do it as well in every other meeting.

Speaker 1: 27:04

I wish I was in that room in that situation. I would have loved to see that Ghost to show. Silence is golden.

Speaker 2: 27:09

It is.

Speaker 1: 27:10

I think to summarise in today's podcast is kindness is very much contagious, so people can help to make a difference with a few acts of kindness and in return they'll hopefully start to see it spread and build a more positive workplace culture. Thank you, Amanda. I've really enjoyed that. It was a positive topic, so I'd be very surprised if we were left feeling not so positive. But thank you so much. That unfortunately brings the podcast to an end.

Speaker 2: 27:33

I would just like to say to each of the listeners I would encourage you today to do one act of kindness, whatever that may be, for a colleague, for a friend, for a family member, for someone you pass on the street. If they drop something, pick it up for them. Whatever it is, do one act of random kindness. I'm going to try and do at least one a day, beyond what I would normally do, because then I can hopefully create this great environment around me.

Speaker 1: 27:58

We can help keep each other accountable, Amanda.

Speaker 2: 28:00

We can. We can. Caitlin, I can acknowledge what kindness I've done in the day.

Speaker 1: 28:05

Well, thank you so much to all of our listeners and have a lovely day. And, as always, we'd love to hear your feedback, so do write in if you do have anything you want to share, if you even want to share what your act of kindness was that day, we'd be very happy to hear that and get some ideas for ourselves.

Speaker 2: 28:20

And if anyone would like to sponsor Caitlin on her incredible marathon that she's running it in London in April, just contact any of the team or there will be a number of posts going on on LinkedIn. We'd be super grateful for your support. So, caitlin, do you just want to finish with explaining who our charity is?

Speaker 1: 28:37

Yes, thank you. Thanks so much, amanda. So the charity is the Queen Elizabeth Foundation. They provide expert advice and life-changing services to individuals who have acquired a serious brain injury or children born with brain injuries, and so really it's changing thousands of lives. I'd really appreciate any support. So thank you, amanda, and thank you to our listeners.

Speaker 2: 28:57

Thank you, caitlin, and I hope everyone has a wonderful and successful day.