Ep52 Trust & Psychological Safety

Trust is the foundation to Psychological Safety, and Psychologically Safe teams are more likely to speak up challenge and ask questions, thus creating more innovative solutions and improving team performance. Does this mean therefore that trust is the foundation of team performance? In this episode of The Chief Psychology Officer we look at the importance of trust at work, and what teams can do to improve the levels of trust at work.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/
To follow Zircon on LinkedIn and to be first to hear about podcasts, publications and news, please like and follow us: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zircon-consulting-ltd/
To access the research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://zircon-mc.co.uk/zircon-white-papers.php
For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform as mentioned in this podcast please contact Amanda via email: hello@betalent.com.

Timestamps

Trust & Psychological Safety

·       00:00 – Introduction to Trust & Psychological Safety

·       01:03 – For 5 letters, it is a broad topic…

·       02:01 – Black, white or gray?

·       03:02 – I trust you, to be late

·       04:30 – 3 minutes is a learning tool

Trust in me

·       05:19 – What does Cognitive trust look like?

·       06:38 – A total trust of the heart!

·       07:20 – The best of both

·       08:12 – I don’t want to spook the markets, or people for that matter.

·       10:37 – It’s about connection

·       11:44 – We create our own image

·       13:01 – Hotels won’t miss what we take

Slowly and surely your senses…

·       13:55 – Predictability

·       15:06 – Oxytocin; let there be lov- sorry, trust

·       17:18 – A mother knows…

·       18:16 – The part of the brain that makes you… you.

·       20:00 – Trigger happy trust

·       21:00 – Switch yourself on; people will trust you more

·       22:17 – If you say gullible really slowly, it sounds like chicken

·       24:19 – Trust in the workplace

·       27:02 – Trust is global, it’s just different types where you go

·       28:47 – Respect cultures!

Shut your eyes, and trust in me.

·       29:58 – One eye where you are, another where you want to go

·       30:44 – 評判

·       32:20 – Following the leader

·       33:34 – Neurodiversity preview

·       35:52 – Goodbye Mr. Chep

·       37:27 – Applying the Trust Equation

·       38:29 – Final thoughts?

·       39:15 – The end.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

To follow Zircon on LinkedIn and to be first to hear about podcasts, publications and news, please like and follow us: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zircon-consulting-ltd/

To access the research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://zircon-mc.co.uk/zircon-white-papers.php

For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform please contact: TheCPO@zircon-mc.co.uk

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

As human beings, we are all wired for connection. It is the backbone of society more broadly and more specifically of productivity and success in organizations, teams, and even family life. What it boils down to quite simply is trust. It's what makes or breaks an organization's potential for growth. Welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr. Amanda Potter, Chartered Psychologist and CEO of Zircon. I'm Angela Malik, and today we are discussing trust. Hi, Amanda. Hi, Angela.

SPEAKER_01: 0:35

You're back. You're back. You're back. You're back. I'm so delighted you're back. Thank you very much for deciding to come back to us after your maternity. I'm so very happy to have you as my podcast host again. Thank you very much. Yes. And today we're talking about trust. It's a topic that clients have been asking us about. It's one that we talk about as being central to psychological safety. And it's been a really cool topic to research for this session today. I

SPEAKER_00: 1:03

mean, trust is such a broad topic. I know we've spoken about it a lot actually in the past but one instance that comes to mind is swift trust from our episode with George Caceres but there are plenty of other ways to think about trust too. What aspect of trust are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_01: 1:20

So I think we're really focusing on trust in teams and organizations because as I've already mentioned trust is the foundation of psychological safety along with purpose and personal connection and increasingly I our clients are talking to us about really deep topics like belonging, like inclusion, like trust, because they really want to understand how the environment, the culture of the organization is impacting how someone feels, how engaged they are, and how motivated they are to deliver results. And somehow trust feels like it has a massive impact on both individual performance, but also organizational success.

SPEAKER_00: 2:01

Some people might think that trust is quite a simple concept You either

SPEAKER_01: 2:07

trust someone or you don't, right? that this is important because we know from the neuroscience that our brains like simplicity they like patterns and we like predictability we look to understand people and when we understand people we then feel like we can trust them so as i've already said if they behave in an erratic way it makes us question them which makes us question ourselves and therefore our amygdala is on alert

SPEAKER_00: 3:00

that's interesting thank you for pointing out that nuance i guess it's like you can trust Trust that your colleague has the best intentions, for example, but also not trust that they're going to come to the meeting on time if that's not what they've got a good track record for. Oh my goodness. Are you talking to me? Are you giving me feedback right now? No, Amanda, never.

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

I'm always a couple of minutes late for every meeting. You're right. So I always have the very best of intentions, but every now and then I am rushing from one meeting to another. And so I may not have a good track record on that front. But to answer your question, if a colleague is always running late it doesn't matter whether they say they're going to be on time your trust in them will be that you know that they will always be late and so you can confidently plan your meeting around them so within our organization we have a policy now which is that if someone is later than three minutes we start the meeting we have three minutes for preamble and then after three minutes we get into the meeting proper because we have so many meetings online as a virtual business and very often I am running from one meeting to another because I've been in a critical call and a client is holding on to me as long as they can. Therefore, I'm running to the next meeting virtually. So I am pretty consistent with that, Angela. And if I'm on time, probably people will feel surprised. But it's a very good point you make there around trust and reliability and consistency and predictability and intention as well.

SPEAKER_00: 4:30

I think also we should point out that our internal policy on the three-minute rule is not just because we're all so late. It's also because as a remote business, we take those opportunities to connect with each other and build trust, actually. And sometimes the chat can run over and we end up running into crucial business time as well. So it's kind of a self limit just to keep us on track.

SPEAKER_01: 4:55

It's true, isn't it? Because we really took a leaf out of our own book around personal connection and trust being the foundation of psychological safety. So at the beginning of every meeting, we try to talk about non-work topics, but we took it a bit too far for a while, didn't we? So we are now trying to rein it back in so that we do really focus on our client work too. And don't just have that time. It's all about that balance. Anyway, talking

SPEAKER_00: 5:19

about trust. Back to trust in general, not just in our organization. If your team trusts you completely or feels psychologically safe with you, what might that look like?

SPEAKER_01: 5:31

Well, I think there's two different ways you could experience that. trust. One is in terms of how something feels. So the emotions and the disposition of that individual who's showing that trust towards you. And the other one is in terms of the intellect and the knowledge, the cognition, the thought that comes from that trust. So it's both the thinking and the feeling.

SPEAKER_00: 5:55

So in terms of that intellectual trust, that cognitive trust, what would an example of that be?

SPEAKER_01: 6:01

So cognitive trust is essentially our comfort in someone's technical ability so their skill for example and it's very much shaped by our evaluation of that person and their competence and so it might be their qualifications it might be their accolades it may be their certifications it's often termed the trust of the head so cognitive trust is very rational it's very impartial it's very logical and it's all about what somebody can do and what somebody can bring to the organization or the team

SPEAKER_00: 6:34

so i guess it's down to how much credibility you attribute to the person you're considering absolutely and then the emotional side what does that look like

SPEAKER_01: 6:42

so this is very much about affect and it's also referred to as the trust of the heart and it's very much around connecting with the individual in an empathic emotional genuine way and it's very much around that feeling of security and perceived strength of relationship and belief in someone that they are trustworthy that they've got positive intentions that they're ethical that they're genuine authentic honest sound and all of those things so that affect the trust that comes from the emotional side is very much about the relationship and how someone feels about the other person

SPEAKER_00: 7:20

so i'm quite an instinctive person myself and i really relate to that affective trust that you've just described i'm wondering though if one is stronger than the other i

SPEAKER_01: 7:32

wonder too but if you go back to the story from george again in our previous podcast on high performing teams he was talking about both being critical that you need both in fast performing teams in order for you to achieve something called swift trust if you remember but i think i'd consider both actually but i do wonder if that emotional affect trust has a greater impact on me if something feels right or doesn't feel right even if someone has all of the qualifications and the accolades you know, I just question myself and question things. So I think that emotional thing for me personally has a greater impact. And speaking of impact, how does trust impact

SPEAKER_00: 8:14

business, for example?

SPEAKER_01: 8:15

Well, the 2016 global survey by PwC reported that half of the CEOs believe that trust or a lack of trust rather is a real threat to an organization's growth. That's quite a significant number. Half of the CEOs thinking that trust impacts their ability to grow their organizations. And they believe that trust is one of the key criterias for the success of their leadership team and business.

SPEAKER_00: 8:43

What about the impact on employees?

SPEAKER_01: 8:45

I think if we work in an environment which is trusting, and I feel trusted, I'm going to feel like I can make suggestions, I'm going to feel more psychologically safe, I'm going to speak up, I'm going to challenge. But actually, from a statistical perspective, again, from the PwC paper, what we found is that that people experience less stress. In fact, 74% said they experience less stress. They're more likely to be energetic. They're more likely to feel like they are well. So they're less likely to have sick days. They feel more engaged and satisfied, less likely to experience burnout and have generally more energy and their productivity is higher. So some incredible stats. I mean, there's loads of percentages that I could allocate to those, but they're all incredible. numbers going in the right direction as a result of working in a trusting environment.

SPEAKER_00: 9:38

And really, if you look at those stats, it's no wonder then that organizations consider trust to be crucial to growth because your employees are the ones that are contributing the most to that growth.

SPEAKER_01: 9:50

I think that's the thing, isn't it? Businesses are made up of people and they are the greatest resource that organization can have. And if they feel like they belong, if they feel like they have purpose and there is connection between themselves and their colleagues, then And that's a fantastic foundation and an amazing starting point for that organization to succeed. So many organizations we work with struggle with some of those real core foundational aspects. And I know as an organization leader, Sarah and I work really hard with our organization, with Stu and Tim, to create that sense of purpose, that sense of trust, belonging, and so on. And we're 23 people, so our job is not half as hard as a large corporate in creating that sense of purpose and belonging and trust.

SPEAKER_00: 10:37

I mean, it does make sense because humans are wired for connection and it's really hard to connect if you don't feel that you can trust

SPEAKER_01: 10:43

someone. I agree because of that very positive relationship between trust and personal connection and belonging. I mean, all of them statistically connect with one another. If there's no trust and connection, there's no incentive to commit to a common purpose or to a mission of an organization or to put yourself out for that team, for that organization. or for a colleague. So it's all about feeling like it's important to you. But it's really interesting as well, that point around trust, because if someone believes in me and trust me, the research shows that I am more likely to be trustworthy. If Angela, you didn't trust me and you expected me to steal things or swing the lead or finish early without saying or doing other things which would not create a sense of trust in the organization, I'm interested statistically would be more likely to do that because I think well she doesn't trust me anyway so I may as well do it I may as well prove her right you know who cares doesn't matter she doesn't trust me anyway it kind of

SPEAKER_00: 11:45

comes down to respect doesn't it and also that old approach of you know you treat people a certain way and that's who they become self-fulfilling

SPEAKER_01: 11:53

prophecy isn't it

SPEAKER_00: 11:54

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 11:54

we become the person other people expect us to be I see myself through the eyes of others the coolly looking glass self theory or personality that we we've talked about on previous podcasts, Angela. And I like the way some people see me and I don't like the way other people have seen me in the past. And what's interesting is we gravitate towards the people who see us in a really positive light and we actively move away from the people who don't get us, who don't see us through that light. And the people who do get us often trust us. And that's why I believe inherently most human beings are trustworthy and have got incredibly good intentions, I think, We are all fundamentally flawed, however, and we all make mistakes. It's a really interesting one. I think trust is really important, but I do believe employees go to work to do a good job, to be trustworthy, to be honest. I know there's some incredible stats around stealing and taking things that are not yours and that people lie. All of us have taken a pen from a hotel room or a shampoo from a hotel room in the past or a pastry at breakfast or something for a morning snack. Everybody's done it. I'm going off track, but it anyway

SPEAKER_00: 13:05

Amanda you're just starting to sound like you go into hotels and walk away with the whole I

SPEAKER_01: 13:11

have a carrier

SPEAKER_00: 13:12

bag bag full of

SPEAKER_01: 13:13

stuff I do no I don't but I do have a very good friend who once had a basket of all the shampoos and conditioners from hotels used to kind of scoop them up and put them in the basket it's like why did you do that you don't even use them so anyway random

SPEAKER_00: 13:28

yeah I

SPEAKER_01: 13:28

mean I have a basket like that too do you do you

SPEAKER_00: 13:33

I don't. But your description there in my head, what I had in my mind was like this clown car bag, handbag, where you're just pulling out like whole baguettes.

SPEAKER_01: 13:45

Yeah, well, I'm in a hotel on Sunday for the conference. Let's see what I can get in my

SPEAKER_00: 13:50

bag. Let's see. So back to trust. Yeah. When it comes to building trust, what does that process look like?

SPEAKER_01: 13:58

So it's all about predictability. For any animal, but particularly for humans, when we're working under pressure, predictability is key to survival. So our brain is going to prioritize anything that feels unsafe or unpredictable because we want to make sure that we have consistency, we have safety, and we have predictability.

SPEAKER_00: 14:20

So predictability is safety, right? And that links to your initial comment. about psychological safety. Is there anything in the research and neuroscience to support this?

SPEAKER_01: 14:29

Well, it all drives from that position of needing simplicity, predictability and moving away from uncertainty. So yes, there's absolutely research on this. And it's actually all about oxytocin. When we release oxytocin, it actually increases our ability to feel like we can trust someone or a situation or something. And that's because oxytocin functionally regulates the fear of cautiousness and it reduces our inhibitions. So when we release oxytocin, we feel more likely to trust people or to feel like we're going into a trusting environment. So oxytocin, I think that's known as the love hormone, right? It is and could also be now known as the trust hormone. Is it actually a

SPEAKER_00: 15:15

hormone? What is it?

SPEAKER_01: 15:17

Well, oxytocin is a neurotransmitter and it's released during positive social interactions and And has, as I said, been associated with increased feelings of trust, but also empathy, cooperation. And it also reduces our sense of fear and enhances our ability to socialize with others because of that creation and feeling of trust in our relationships. But it's really interesting because in our previous podcast, Angela, we have had a debate about can you actually release oxytocin? So Christian and I in a previous podcast actually talked about The hug, seven second hug, you know, he was saying, can you actually release oxytocin through a seven second hug? And we agreed on a previous podcast, no. Oxytocin comes from very intimate interactions with a loved one or with a baby. It's not through a hug necessarily or petting a dog or a cat. So it's a bit of an interesting debate because whilst oxytocin is regarded to be the trust hormone or love hormone, it's really hard to access. So it's really interesting that when we look at the neurotransmitters And we're trying to work out which of them creates a sense of trust in us. It's the one that's the most difficult to access. And it's the one that's the most sticky once you do access it. Oxytocin is also great for helping us build resilience and persistence as well. So in other words, what I take from that research is that when our home life is good, when we have a balance of home life and we spend time with the people that we love and we have an intimacy with them. with our partner because that's also part of what we're talking about here we are more likely to be able to access that neurotransmitter we are more likely therefore to be able to build those pro-social relationships we're able to contribute to an environment in a trustworthy way and feel trusted and so our home life therefore has a real impact on how we feel at work

SPEAKER_00: 17:18

that makes sense and i mean i think because of my new foray into parenthood I see this through the lens of a mother now, that your oxytocin levels are so high when you have a child. No wonder then that we are kind of wired to be more empathetic as mothers.

SPEAKER_01: 17:35

You really are, aren't you? Yeah, I'm 17 years out of that now. Maybe I'm less empathetic now. I don't think so. Hard mum. But no, I can absolutely see that. I do remember after having my son, I couldn't watch any movies where children would be hurt or if they were lost or even the news about children. I mean, it impacted me so significantly to see any animal or child being hurt in any way. So I can totally see that I was very much in touch with those very emotive thoughts and feelings as a result of.

SPEAKER_00: 18:12

It definitely changes your perspective. It does, doesn't it? It really does. So if oxytocin is so difficult to access, especially at work, are there other factors we can focus on instead? What other functions in the brain impact trust?

SPEAKER_01: 18:26

Well, I think we can talk about the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, which are two parts of the brain that we have spoken about many times. So the prefrontal cortex is a region of the brain responsible for higher level cognitive functions. And it's also critical in trust. So it's good that we don't have to just talk about oxytocin. This region is instrumental in evaluating the social cues and making trust related decisions. And it helps us to process information from other people and their intentions. And if you remember previously, the prefrontal cortex helps us with rationality, with logic, with judgment, and it helps to assess the reliability and trustworthiness of an individual in their social interactions, because it looks at that simplicity, reliability, consistency element that we were talking about. So when we're talking, Angela, my prefrontal cortex is becoming actively engaged to make sure that there is a pattern occurring and that I can rely on that pattern in the way in which you talk to me and interact with me.

SPEAKER_00: 19:30

That's why we're so good at picking up when something's not quite right, when it's just a little bit off and actually that's our prefrontal cortex saying, hmm, something going on here.

SPEAKER_01: 19:40

Yes, you sound different, you're acting slightly differently. You and I had a lovely walk, didn't we, last week and we were talking about lots of different things and I was asking you lots of questions about what it's like to be a mum and to work at the same time because of some of the cues I was getting from you so absolutely

SPEAKER_00: 19:55

that's interesting I didn't know that's why you were asking all that it was good chat So we've got prefrontal cortex and are there any other functions we should think about?

SPEAKER_01: 20:05

So the amygdala is the other one. So we know already that the amygdala is primarily associated with processing emotion. So it's the emotion center of the brain and mostly in the context of fear and threat. So it's all about keeping us safe. But in trust related scenarios, the amygdala comes into play because it's about managing that uncertainty or potential risk. It helps us to assess whether we can trust somebody or whether they might be a threat to our wellbeing. So when that trust is violated or threatened, if someone acts erratically or if they act in a way that's untrustworthy, so they steal the pen or the shampoo or the baguette from the restaurant in the hotel, then the amygdala's activity will increase and it will signal an emotional response related to distrust. So the amygdala helps us to understand and recognise that somebody should not be trusted. I

SPEAKER_00: 21:00

don't know if you have any insight into this, but I'm wondering now if someone's very gullible, what is it that is kind of failing them in those moments? Is it the prefrontal cortex or the amygdala or both?

SPEAKER_01: 21:12

Well, I'm probably going to answer that in a different way, which is there has been some brilliant research that has shown that the people who are the most vigilant are therefore less likely to be burgled, less likely to be pickpocketed or to be mugged or to have any type of outside threat because they are constantly aware of what those threats might be. And those individuals who are particularly vigilant have very high performing amygdalas. Their amygdalas are on high alert. So they are very aware of threat. So when we are very relaxed, and even to the point of being complacent, the amygdala is not on high alert at all. And therefore, we are more likely to be at risk of something happening to us without realizing it, trusting the wrong person, leaving keys in the even good things that bike outside. Because we trust the people around us, it's more likely that those things will happen to those individuals because they don't create the right environment. I didn't answer the question about gullibility, but I kind of answered what I knew. I don't know the answer to your question. I

SPEAKER_00: 22:15

suppose where we could go with that to extract an answer, but this is really not research-based from my side anyway, would be if vigilance is associated with a high-performing amygdala, then gullibility maybe is associated with the amygdala not being as active. But that's just a guess.

SPEAKER_01: 22:33

I haven't done any research. I think it's a good guess. I do remember my dad told me years ago, thanks dad, that they took the word gullible out of the dictionary. That is such a typical dad joke. Oh, I know. And I am very gullible. I hide on April 1st because I generally get done in by all the April 1st jokes. So I read them. I have to remind myself it's April 1st it's April Fools stay away from all of the news and all of your friends and family because they are going to say something you believe during that 12 hour period and then I'm going to hate myself for it because I realize I'm an idiot so I

SPEAKER_00: 23:17

am part of your listeners if you want to have a laugh in April that's one way you can do it

SPEAKER_01: 23:23

oh well there was a very gorgeous man called Richard who was at the ABP for many years he was a shining light of the ABP he sadly has passed away now and he sent Richard Taylor he sent out a message about one of the conferences and me on the 1st of April I'm not even going to say what it was because it's so embarrassing and me being gullible completely fell for it hook line and sinker and I sent him this email back and he was like Amanda look at the date and so yeah It's terrible. I always forget that. In fact, there's a whole podcast that we could just do on how many times Amanda has been fooled on April Fool's Day. I'm now just hiding in my house on that day.

SPEAKER_00: 24:10

Oh, dear. Well, back on to trust instead of gullibility. Sorry for taking us down the rabbit hole there, but it just piqued my interest. Let's talk about trust in the workplace. How would you build trust in the workplace?

SPEAKER_01: 24:23

I think really the main thing for trust is purpose are we clear about why we come together, the role each of us play in the team and the impact each of us are going to have in that team? And also, are we clear about our different strengths? So why would I come to you, Angela? What is it that I think really adds value in terms of your style and your approach? And then if I think about us as a team as a whole, how do we then interact and work together? So for me, it's all about that job crafting the purpose of the team, the roles we play, the strengths that we've got, and then we kind of facilitate that into something that's really very meaningful for the team. That's the very first step.

SPEAKER_00: 25:09

So I guess that almost sounds like cognitive trust a bit because you're thinking in terms of someone's skillset, for example, how credible you find them for the purpose of the team.

SPEAKER_01: 25:20

Completely. The other one is autonomy because whilst we want to be clear, we also want to give people control and the ability to make their own decisions. And so if I feel like I'm in control of my own destiny and I have autonomy and I also have clarity and purpose, then I'm actually going to deliver something that I think is meaningful. I'm therefore likely to do something that's in line with the requirements of the organization or the team, and I'm going to try and do my very best. So purpose and autonomy are two of the key areas so far.

SPEAKER_00: 25:51

That comes down to treating people as if they're trustworthy and then they will be trustworthy

SPEAKER_01: 25:56

Absolutely. Trust someone to deliver and they will rather than micromanaging them and breathing down their neck.

SPEAKER_00: 26:02

I'm sure the culture of the workplace really comes into it as well. Having that sense of belonging.

SPEAKER_01: 26:08

It does. So belonging is absolutely key. It's so interesting, isn't it, that the research all comes together around these topics and these areas. And actually, it's all about creating that sense of unity, clarity, purpose, belonging. All of those things are really important. So you're right. the third thing is indeed having a good sense of belonging.

SPEAKER_00: 26:29

And is there anything else that helps build trust in the workplace?

SPEAKER_01: 26:32

I think it's about giving the team a reason and a goal and a focus, something to work towards. So a real hunger to achieve would be fantastic for creating a sense of trust when everybody feels like they're working towards the same activity, towards the same target or the same goal. So in summary, I know we just chatted about that very openly, the four things are Purpose, autonomy, belonging and focus or a goal of some kind.

SPEAKER_00: 27:01

As you know, Amanda, we've recently had our B-Talents psychological safety questionnaire translated into French. Japanese is going to be released soon. That has me thinking about cultural differences. Is trust global? I think there must be some cultural differences.

SPEAKER_01: 27:18

So the study by HBR, so Harvard Business Review, has looked at this and it's shown that in different continents we value different types of trust. Across Europe, actually, we really rate emotive or that affect trust as being the most important. And that's the same in the Middle East and South Asia and Latin America. So interaction is really important in those areas as well. Whereas in East Asia is very much about credibility, reputation and skill. So yeah, there are cultural differences, interestingly. And we've seen that in terms of psychological safety I've worked in Japan, which was a massive joy many years ago, and the cultural differences there were outstanding. And now that we've translated our psychological safety tool into Japanese, it's going to be amazing to be able to look at the differences around the world. Because I have a theory around that deference to leadership in certain cultures being more acceptable or expected in some cultures than in others. We see it as a factor that might undermine psychological safety across countries. Europe and maybe North America but in certain parts of Asia then it may actually be expected that there is a deference to leadership and even though it undermines psychological safety it may be regarded as a risk that people are prepared to take because it's a critical aspect of an organization's culture and performance in that area of the world.

SPEAKER_00: 28:47

Interestingly if as we said at the beginning if trust is based around reliability and predictability if a culture then expects you to defer to leadership, for example, and then you don't. You've actually done something quite erratic and maybe dismantled some of that trust.

SPEAKER_01: 29:04

Yeah. And again, talking about psychological safety, that deference to leadership comes up in certain industries as well. So if we think about the forces, the emergency services, there are situations and environments where deferring to leadership is absolutely critical. But I'm talking to the And we're talking exactly about deference to leadership as one of the most important factors for success, but also one of their greatest risks, because they want people to push back, to challenge, to ask questions. And they are so rule following in the Met because they don't want to make any mistakes and they want to protect the people who are in custody and make sure that they do everything by the book, that they cannot veer away from it at all. But anyway. I'm going off track. It's very interesting. It

SPEAKER_00: 29:57

definitely is. In these different cultures, you've said that emotional trust is more important in certain areas and that cognitive trust is important in other areas. And I know we talked about both are important earlier. Are both types of trust equally valuable?

SPEAKER_01: 30:15

Yeah, I think they are. Since companies operate in such a global scale these days, it could be really muddy if we try to talk about one more of I think we need to recognize that even if you're working in East Asia, which is very much about reputation and credibility, that you might be interacting with people in North America, which is very much about emotional and affect-based trust. So I think we need to think about both aspects of trust being critical across global organizations these

SPEAKER_00: 30:45

days. forge a relationship, you have to spend a lot of time not talking about business first. And that would actually belie this reliance on cognitive trust in that culture, surely.

SPEAKER_01: 31:08

But reputation is so key in that culture as well. I mean, we're talking about it. It'd be lovely if we had someone who was listening who could add to that, actually. But reputation and credibility is so important. They would never, ever address me as anything other than Dr. Amanda while I was there. So my PhD and my standing was very, very important to them. And even when we went to a karaoke bar on the last night and had drinks with them, they were still calling me Dr. Amanda. They would not veer away from my title first. It was always, that title was so important to them. So yes, I do agree that building relationships is absolutely key. And it was fantastic fun learning their culture and seeing Japan. It was incredible. What an amazing opportunity But absolutely building trust through relationships is something that is really important to them. But so credibility. So both.

SPEAKER_00: 32:03

I suppose having the credibility is what opens that door to begin with. And then they can move on to building a relationship through emotional trust. But you won't even get through the door if you haven't got the reputation to back you up first. Absolutely. Just guessing anyway. So Amanda, is there anything team leaders can do to encourage trust? So

SPEAKER_01: 32:23

leaders play a... really critical role in creating trustworthy workplaces. And they can do this, you will not be surprised to hear, through consistent communication, through dealing with issues head on, by leading with integrity, by being transparent and authentic in their communication, and by being a role model for other people to follow. By active listening, showing empathy, through asking questions, and through delegating and empowering other people rather than holding on to the important critical tasks but actually giving other people the opportunity to try new things and to challenge themselves and finally by making sure that the more junior colleagues in the team are always involved in every conversation that you address them by name to actively include them in those conversations and that you act on it if you get feedback as well so you take that information and you use it you don't just sweep it under the carpet so creating an environment where everybody matters and has a say and is heard is really the foundation of creating a trusting environment.

SPEAKER_00: 33:34

I mean really all of that comes down to lots of emotional intelligence skills I would say. Communication, being aware of others in the room and how to include them and thinking very proactively about your juniors and others in the room who may not feel that they can speak up without being invited to.

SPEAKER_01: 33:54

And it's made me think about neurodiversity because we recently got asked the question around compassionate leadership and whether people who are neurodiverse could they be compassionate as a leader as someone who's neurotypical and interestingly we're recording a podcast on neurodiversity in the new year and we've got a fantastic guest Ian Eyston joining us for that podcast recording I've interviewed him already he's incredible he's got so much knowledge and expertise having done a PhD in this space and we did some research thank you to Sharon but also I asked him the question his answer was that yes neurodiverse and neurotypical people can both be compassionate not everybody is compassionate of course but everybody has the propensity to be compassionate his point was that somebody who's neurodiverse may not demonstrate that compassion in a typical way and so it's a really interesting point you make there around the leader Angela and emotional intelligence because Angela Actually, the compassion of a leader is really important in creating a trusting environment. But if we have a leader that is neurodiverse, they may show that compassion in a non-typical way. So it may not be obvious to you that they are showing you compassion. You would need to understand, learn about that person and how they typically interact with you in order to recognize those cues as compassion in that individual, because it's not what you would normally see. That

SPEAKER_00: 35:28

kind of underscores maybe something that we haven't mentioned yet, which is that it's not all on the leader then. It's also on the other members of the team to cultivate trust by giving others the benefit of the doubt and looking for those cues of compassion where it might not be so obvious and being an empathetic and compassionate person yourself. Have you come across any interesting models around trust? in your work with clients lately, Amanda?

SPEAKER_01: 35:58

So if I think about the work that Bea, so one of our colleagues from CHEP, her name is Bea, Beatrice Manrique, she's doing some work with her internal colleagues from a company called CHEP in Spain. They are using the trust equation, which is credibility, so knowing your stuff, reliability, so consistency, and intimacy, so getting to know somebody is reliability. really important to build trust. But then you look at that in relation to your personal self-orientation. So if you've got high levels of credibility and reliability and intimacy with colleagues and you're not too self-focused or self-interested, then we are likely to build more trust. If we have too much self-interest, then we are less likely to build trust because we're going to be low in terms of transparency. or in terms of authenticity, because we're going to want to present ourselves in a certain light. We're going to be presenting a fake persona. But if we're very honest and authentic, then we're going to create a really good positive trust and create the right environment to create trust. That's a really interesting way to look at it. It is, isn't it? It's that personal self-interest is the key to that model. If we're too self-interested or try to present ourselves in a light that we think other people want to see, then we're not going to create the right environment for trust.

SPEAKER_00: 37:28

But then what does that look like in practice? Like how do you apply that trust equation?

SPEAKER_01: 37:34

It's really about getting the right balance, thinking about the people in the room. Are we being credible? Are we leading with the skills and knowledge that we have? Are we delivering on promises? So are we reliable? Are we taking time to build good, solid relationships with each other? But finally, am I being myself? Am I being honest? Thank you to Bea from CHEP for that insight because it's a great

SPEAKER_00: 37:59

model. So that's the trust equation. So that is credibility plus reliability plus intimacy. And that's all divided by your self-interest, your self-orientation.

SPEAKER_01: 38:10

Correct. So if you have too much self-interest or too much self-orientation, you're going to have to have masses of credibility, reliability and intimacy in the team to balance it off. So the most important thing is to make sure that you act in a trustworthy way. and that you are yourself and not trying to be someone else.

SPEAKER_00: 38:29

So Amanda, any final thoughts as we wrap up this episode on trust?

SPEAKER_01: 38:34

I think that point around self-orientation is a really good way to finish, which is people who believe themselves to be trustworthy are more likely to trust themselves. They're more likely to trust other people and people who do not regard themselves to be trustworthy find it harder to trust both themselves and other people. people and so that is the point really that self-orientation be yourself be authentic be honest with yourself is the real foundation for creating a trusting environment

SPEAKER_00: 39:05

well and on the reverse side of that too we talked about people who are trusted are more likely to be trustworthy too so it kind of comes full circle it really does well that draws us to the end of this podcast thank you so much manda for an interesting discussion yet again

SPEAKER_01: 39:21

you're very welcome thank you for coming back and thank you for hosting the podcast again. It's brilliant to have you back in the host seat. Angela, thank you so very much. I'm so glad to be back. I'm pleased. And I just wanted to say that we really appreciate the comments, the feedback and all the ideas of new topics. But if you have got a specific issue or a topic that you would be interested in us researching and recording, then please could you email us at the CPO at zircon-mc.co.uk and we're looking at all the different topics that people are sending in and considering them for next year's calendar.

SPEAKER_00: 40:04

And as my final thought, I just want to invite our listeners to think of one person they really, really trust and share our podcast with them. That's all from us. Have a great day, everyone.

SPEAKER_01: 40:15

Thank you very much. Thanks, Angela. That's a brilliant idea. And thank you, everyone, for listening. I hope you have a wonderful and successful day.