The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep49 Neuroscience of Burnout

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol • Season 2 • Episode 49

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What does neuroscience say about burnout? In this episode, Senior Consultant Kristian Lees-Bell and the Chief Psychology Officer Dr Amanda Potter build on the neuroscience of resilience podcast and discuss the physiological and neurological reaction to stress, the emotions we feel as a result and the risk of burnout. This podcast explains the chemical response to burnout and starts to outline some actions you can take to reduce the risk of burning out and remain stronger in prolonged or acute stress situations. 
The Chief Psychology Officer episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/
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To access the resilience and psychological safety research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://zircon-mc.co.uk/zircon-white-papers.php
For more information about the BeTalent Resilience and Psychological Safety questionnaires mentioned in this podcast please contact hello@betalent.com

Timestamps

Neuroscience of Burnout

·       00:00 – Introduction to the Neuroscience of Burnout

·       01:13 – Tell the story you know…

·       02:01 – Atkins Neuroscience, not the diet

·       03:22 – You are what you eat

·       04:04 – Dopamine; its on the list.

·       05:10 – Serotonin; the superglue to Dopamine’s sticky tape

The Persistence of Memory

·       06:05 – What is Burnout?

·       06:58 – I think you ought to know, I’m feeling very depressed…

·       08:04 – I’m too tired to write something witty here, also my head hurts

·       09:08 – GPP (Genuine People Personalities)

·       10:06 – I’m feeling no connection here

·       11:00 – What was I doing again?

In my mind’s eye…

·       13:27 – Burnout in the workplace

·       14:09 – The 12 Steps (not by the AA)

·       15:16 – It affects us all; own it!

·       17:42 – Perhaps it’s an age thing…

·       18:20 – It’s your personality

·       19:28 – The Brain’s HPA and feeding yourself cortisol 

·       21:19 – This is stressful!

·       22:35 – Solipsistic this isn’t it?...

Burnout is much more than skin deep.

·       23:25 – The process

·       26:10 – You’re overthinking the little details

·       27:35 – Try to be nice, but always be kind

·       28:23 – What does your therapist say?

·       29:40 – Let set some boundaries here:

·       31:25 – Please share

·       32:16 – The end.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

To follow Zircon on LinkedIn and to be first to hear about podcasts, publications and news, please like and follow us: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zircon-consulting-ltd/

To access the research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://zircon-mc.co.uk/zircon-white-papers.php

For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform please contact: TheCPO@zircon-mc.co.uk

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr. Amanda Potter, Chartered Psychologist and CEO of Zircon. And I'm Christian Lees-Bell, Senior Consultant at Zircon.

SPEAKER_01:

Hey, Christian. Thank you very much for being the host today.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm really enjoying it. And today in particular, it's a subject that I've got a particular fascination for. We're going to be sharing our insight and research looking at the neuroscience of burnout and build on our last podcast on the neuroscience of resilience.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Christian. I, as usual, am very excited about recording this podcast and I'm someone who loves neuroscience. I love anything that's to do with the brain and the brain chemistry and the way it impacts how we feel. So this episode is great because as someone who's personally experienced quite extreme burnout in my life, it completely changed the way I saw myself and my career and how I live my life and not in a good way at that point. So understanding burnout and the neuroscience of burnout and doing all the research over the past few years has been incredibly cathartic for me and it's been a real therapy for me. So I'm absolutely delighted to share this research today.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think you're completely right, Amanda. I know when we've been on workshops together and you've occasionally shared your own story and taught people around the neuroscience of resilience in particular, generally there's been a lot of fascination around that topic and it really surprised me how people were totally engaged with the neuroscience piece. around resilience and burnout. And I think we both find it really fascinating, don't we?

SPEAKER_01:

We do.

SPEAKER_00:

In the last podcast, we looked at the neuroscience of resilience, didn't we?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we looked at what happens in the brain when we're stressed. And we looked at the activation of the sympathetic nervous system and the role of the amygdala and the impact of stress hormones and chemicals on how we feel and then how we interpret those as emotions and how that impacts our behavior and not always in a good way.

SPEAKER_00:

And we also looked, didn't we, at how to reduce that stress response and to increase the release of the positive neurotransmitters I think and the hormones.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's my favourite bit because I'm so fascinated about how some simple decisions and actions that we take on a daily basis can impact the release of certain neurotransmitters and hormones and can facilitate quite different feelings and emotions and it was in the workshop we ran yesterday with Atkins Christian that I think was the real aha moment for some of our delegates that we were talking about strengths weren't we and the impact of playing to your strengths all day and leaving the day feeling good and then as a result of feeling good we go into the evening with great intentions we go to the gym we eat healthily we avoid the chocolate and the wine and we're active however when we spend the day not playing to our strengths and we leave the day depleted and exhausted I know myself I don't have the mental capacity to make the good decisions I tell myself my brain lies to me and tells me to sit down eat chocolate or cake and and watch a movie, which isn't that healthy. I should be getting up, going for a dog walk, going to the gym, creating a nice fresh food. I've actually trained myself away from those bad habits, but it's taken a long time. But it is fascinating how some simple decisions and actions can completely change how you feel. And that's really evident in my life. And that's why I really wanted to share this.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it was really powerful on that workshop that we did. And I think the neuroscience element of the workshop actually gave our delegates a real understanding of the why So they know why they were feeling under confident or really tired at the end of the day, when they weren't, for example, being energized by the strengths that they had. So I think that that neuroscience piece is really fascinating and sort of ties everything together.

SPEAKER_01:

It's completely true. And the fact is that when we eat certain foods, so if we eat the good healthy ones, or if we take certain actions, it will help with the release of positive neurotransmitters, e.g. dopamine or serotonin, and they create a positive feeling, which we interpret as emotion or contentment. You

SPEAKER_00:

mentioned dopamine in particular. Can you give me an example of what that does?

SPEAKER_01:

Dopamine is the reward chemical. It's a neuromodulator and we get it by completing a task, doing a self-care activity, celebrating a little win. But as I mentioned in the last podcast on resilience, it's not very sticky, so it doesn't stay around for long. I'm one for writing something on a list after I've done it in order to cross it off because I get that sense of contentment. I get a little boost of dopamine. I did it this morning I did exactly that and I smiled to myself as I did it because I thought I'm just I'm tricking my body to release dopamine so I feel good and it works I genuinely feel good by writing a list and crossing things off

SPEAKER_00:

yeah you're not the only one I think I know some family members who love writing and taking and following lists I try and avoid lists sometimes yeah I'm quite inconsistent and ticking the things off but yeah I suppose that dopamine just gives you that temporary surge and hit well I need some instruction, but maybe it's my own lists that need improving. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe your girlfriend can give you a list.

SPEAKER_00:

I think she'd be happy to. What about serotonin?

SPEAKER_01:

So serotonin is also a neuromodulator, similar to dopamine, but dissimilar to dopamine in that it's stickier. In other words, it stays around for longer. And we can get hold of serotonin through meditation, through exercise, particularly exercise outside in the sun or in the daylight, through certain foods. We've talked about already dark chocolate and bananas. I'd prefer milk if we don't mind, but that doesn't count apparently. And because it's sticky, it means that the good feelings, the impact of that neurotransmitter is stronger. And they're both neuromodulators because they enhance the ability for the brain to release other transmitters that also result in a positive feeling. For example, acetylcholine, which I'm hoping I pronounced correctly this time, and also oxytocin. oxytocin it's all pretty good.

SPEAKER_00:

So tying this up with our topic today and coming to the subject of the podcast which is burnout let's start off with that question so what exactly is burnout?

SPEAKER_01:

It's a syndrome resulting from chronic workplace stress now it's about that long-term stress that hasn't been managed rather than very acute or in the moment stress is all about that long term and it's regarded and recognized by the World Health Organization as a psychological syndrome that results from stress on the job and it's very interesting that the World Health Organization particularly consider the role of the job the role of the organization in burnout rather than thinking about it as a syndrome that happens outside of work.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah I've read that too there's quite a lot of research now isn't there of the workplace factors that impact burnout and I think before I started reading that research I tended to think of burnout as a very personal thing. I'm wondering how do I know if I'm And that might be something that our listeners will be wondering.

SPEAKER_01:

I think the scary thing about it is that we often don't even realize we are until we've got there or we're on that progression till we got there. The three key things are overwhelming exhaustion, the feelings of cynicism and detachment, so no longer caring and a sense of ineffectiveness or a lack of accomplishment, not really wanting to go for goals, avoiding goals and wanting to remove yourself from any situation.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's interesting, isn't it? Because it might start off or at least from what I've heard, it can start off with people caring very much about their performance. And the eventual outcome is maybe they burn out and they don't care so much or they detach from the outcome.

SPEAKER_01:

That's very true, actually, because the reality is, as we know, there are 12 steps to burnout, which we're going to talk about. But that first step is about wanting to prove oneself, wanting to do a good job. And so you're right, how interesting that the last one is no longer caring.

SPEAKER_00:

What do people experience, Amanda, when they burnout? What are the symptoms, for example?

SPEAKER_01:

You can think about physical, emotional, interpersonal and cognitive symptoms. So the physical ones will be around the fatigue that I've mentioned, it could be around the impact on sleep, because as we know, cortisol and melatonin, the sleep hormone don't work well together, you either have one or other in your body. So when we burn out, we are increasing our fight or flight response, increasing our production of cortisol, which of course has an impact on our ability to fall asleep and stay asleep. and therefore people don't wake up feeling refreshed, which is unfortunately a really tough thing because it just makes it worse and worse. The other physical complaints might also be around headaches, muscle tension, stomach aches. A lot of people, when we run our workshops, Christian, they talk about their stomach and the impact on their eating patterns in that they may end up eating too much or too little or they might get sore stomachs and so on. So that does seem to be quite stress-related.

SPEAKER_00:

And when we talk about the emotional symptoms, I know you've described some of those in your description of burnout personally and I know I've experienced some of those emotions that are related to burnout. Can you tell us a bit about the emotional aspect and what symptoms people experience through that process?

SPEAKER_01:

So I think the disconnection is one that really needs talking about because we mentioned already cynicism and detachment being some of the emotional symptoms. When we burn out we gradually need to protect ourselves because the amygdala is on high alert and it's scanning the environment for threat. The way to protect ourselves is to remove ourselves to disconnect and so we get to the point that actually we are trying to avoid the threat remove ourselves from that sense of discomfort and protect ourselves so the emotional symptoms could end up in feeling worthless or anxious or depressed or sad or hopeless so there's a lot of negative emotions that we could feel.

SPEAKER_00:

I've heard that there's also an interpersonal element to this I mean we know in well-being research that social support The importance of connecting with others at work and at home is so critical. So what can you tell us, Amanda, around sort of the interpersonal symptoms of burnout and also how it affects the way we think and connect?

SPEAKER_01:

The interpersonal ones means that we can fail to connect with people who we would normally connect really well with. So we might find that we get irritable with loved ones or we create conflicts or create arguments with loved ones or close family members because we feel isolated and unsupported and we don't feel understood, what happens is we might flare up or get angry and irritable about silly things. And that can result in a sense of loneliness.

SPEAKER_00:

And I guess people also can sometimes detach. So whereas before they might have been the life and soul of the party, or they might be an extrovert who were energized by connecting with others and needing that social support. Is it the case that with burnout, people might sometimes just stop in that behavior and detaching?

SPEAKER_01:

I agree, Christian. I wonder out of all those symptoms that we've just talked about, which ones are the most apparent for people? I think it varies person to person, because the last one we were going to talk about is cognitive symptoms. And that's where I have the biggest trouble when I'm struggling. And that's about concentration, attention, memory, creativity, quality of work, and so on. I know for myself, when I'm really, really stressed, I get big black holes in my memory. And I literally can't remember whole segments of my day when I really anxious and there has been times in my past that it was so bad that I had literally blocked out whole meetings and it took quite a lot of work for me to get those meetings back into my memory because I had 100% taken them out of my short term memory and shielded myself from those really difficult times.

SPEAKER_00:

So it seems as though that feeling stress and anxiety had a very real impact on the way you're processing information because all your resources were already completely exhausted so you went in the moment, it seems.

SPEAKER_01:

What's crazy is I work really hard to be as productive, as present in every meeting that I can be. Once I remembered it, I remembered everything about the meeting. But in that moment, I couldn't for the life of me remember the meeting, the situation or anything. The point being, there's physical, emotional, interpersonal and cognitive symptoms for burnout. And each of us will have differing levels of each of these symptoms, depending on who we are and how we're made up how we are built if you like for me it's cognitive which one is it for you then christian which are the symptoms would you experience more readily when you're really under stress

SPEAKER_00:

i would say it was a lack of or a reduction in me taking care of myself poorer eating habits i know when i'm stressed or when i do get anxious then i'll tend to eat the whole pack of donuts or biscuits rather than just a few i'll sit at a computer i'll carry on with work and not get up after a few hours and take a walk or drink a glass of water even though I know what I need to do to actually help myself. So I can kind of get stuck into that negative cycle, which is, I know it's not helpful, but I find it harder to be able to, I suppose, exercise that willpower and discipline when I'm already depleted, Amanda.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so that's more down the physical, isn't it? So it's what we were talking about earlier, that the judgment disappears. When we are struggling, we are no longer able to make good choices. So it's a bit more of the physical symptoms.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so for me, yeah. So the World Health Organization regards burnout amanda is a workplace syndrome don't they which i think is really interesting what are the causes

SPEAKER_01:

so there's three main causes they are relationship with the line manager the volume of work and lack of purpose or too much complexity and a lack of clarity so they are from our research the three main reasons why somebody might end up burning out

SPEAKER_00:

i have to admit i always thought that burnout was just about exhaustion and overwhelm but it's much more complex isn't it there are models outlining different stages aren't there so from five even to 12 stages of burnout that I've seen what model do you typically share Amanda?

SPEAKER_01:

I tend to talk about the 12 stages of burnout and it would be too much to go through them one by one and we've already alluded to the fact that the first step is all about proving yourself and the last step which is burnout can result in total mental physical cognitive and interpersonal collapse there are a number of steps around not being able to switch off bad sleeping avoid being cynical, which I keep talking about. But actually it's step eight and people can look up these 12 steps online and we'll put them into the show notes as well. But it's actually point eight where you get to the odd behavior or erratic behavior that you can start to see it in yourself and others. Until then, it just feels like you're working hard and really pushing everything towards doing the best you can and you lose that sense of rationality. And so it isn't until you get to realize that you crying at the drop of a hat or being irate about something really small and potentially insignificant that you think, wait a minute, this isn't right.

SPEAKER_00:

And particularly if it's a behavior that's quite different to what you're normally like. So therefore people tend to notice it, don't they? If it's different from the usual. Who's more prone to burnout in terms of different groups? I mean, are men more prone to burnout than women, for example? Are young people more prone than older people to burning out?

SPEAKER_01:

Everyone, regardless of experience, training, age is at risk of burnout so if you're caught in the crossfire of constant physical exhaustion insomnia emotional overload you've got a toxic line manager there's not enough clarity then you are potentially risk of burnout but it's about the choices that you make if you don't look after yourself and you don't have healthy habits if you don't take time to rest in between all of the demands then you're not putting yourself in the best place

SPEAKER_00:

and do we know how many people burn out on average

SPEAKER_01:

our researchers from anecdotal research with organizations and And also from us doing a bit of surveying was about 55% was the highest in one of the organizations we work with. But the average was 49%. Actually, research by Microsoft was 53%. So our research seemed pretty consistent with that. That was by Klinghoffer and Kirkpatrick Husk in 23. That's

SPEAKER_00:

very high. Is that across the life cycle rather than obviously at any one time?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's absolutely across a life cycle of an employee. It's not that there's 55% of employees at any one point, Arbo. But actually, at any point in our career, 55% of us might be

SPEAKER_00:

at

SPEAKER_01:

risk. women are prepared to own it and more men want to save face and not admit to it. As a result women according to the research are more likely than men to take action to fight it whereas men are more likely to get caught up in that catch-22 situation and suffer rather than deal with it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah and that really does make sense doesn't it when we consider that women are more likely to have those or a more varied number of networks to reach out and connect when they are struggling and men sometimes just struggling on until eventually it's too late, really, and they're already burnt out. So it does make a lot of sense. There's a lot more nuance than maybe the data might show at the moment. What about age?

SPEAKER_01:

For men, burnout increases with age. So men's risk increases with age. But for women, it's bimodal. It's between 20 to 35 and then over 55 at the risk of burnout. And actually, if I think about life experiences, that seems to be when it's kind of when you're trying to have a young family and combining young families And then it's menopause, isn't it? So very interesting that there's a bimodal distribution for women, that there's two peaks, one younger and one

SPEAKER_00:

older. to experience burnout.

SPEAKER_01:

Both of those are great examples, actually, because both of them are also predictors of imposter syndrome, when somebody feels like the need to prove themselves. And these traits are indeed predictors of burnout. So conscientious individuals who are achievements driving, if we think about type A behavior, achievements driving behavior, are going to put themselves in a situation where they are trying to prove themselves, which is that first step. So logically, it works. And yes, that's the case.

SPEAKER_00:

And we You've been doing a lot of research, I know, on burnout and imposter syndrome. So are there links between the two? I

SPEAKER_01:

think it's about 43% of people who have imposter syndrome also burn out. There are links between the two because, of course, we have found that resilient people are more likely to have self-belief and less likely to have burnout. And we already know that perfectionism is one of the biases that potentially creates the feelings of imposter syndrome. So it's all kind of connecting.

SPEAKER_00:

What happens in the brain then when we burn out? We were talking about the neuroscience aspect before. So what's going on here?

SPEAKER_01:

So chronic stress, if we think about that long-term stress, which is the primary contributor to burnout. Thank you to Kashaya for doing this research for us, because what she has identified and shared with us is that when we have chronic stress, it activates the HPA axis, which I will read out for you as the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenocortal axis. My goodness. And that's what we need for stress adaptation. The prolonged cortisol exposure can lead to the HPA axis that I just talked about, dysregulating. Basically, it means that the brain is less responsive to cortisol over time. So that's the most important point, which is when there's chronic stress, which is a contributor of burnout, this chronic stress and prolonged cortisol exposure means that there's a dysregulation in the brain and the brain is less responsive to that cortisol over time. And that is what contributes to feelings of exhaustion reduced resilience and impaired cognitive function

SPEAKER_00:

and that's really interesting because cortisol helps us doesn't it with performance so a bit of stress can be positive and can be mobilizing and we talk about eustress is when we can perform at our highest level in a good way so if we've got too much activation of the hpa as you've just mentioned then we'll become actually dulled to the cortisol and it won't have that impact of helping us to perform at our best and we just feel sort of tired and exhausted

SPEAKER_01:

it's true we do need cortisol to perform and we need to be responsive to that cortisol in order to achieve eustress, in order to achieve our highest levels, to be alert and I need a little bit of stress to be at my best. I don't want too much.

SPEAKER_00:

It helps me and I know it helps us to prepare for action and helps with motivation and it's got a positive mobilising effect generally but what happens when there's prolonged stress?

SPEAKER_01:

So prolonged stress is associated with burnout and is linked with structural changes in the brain. The hippocampus, which is critical for memory and emotional regulation can shrink in response to chronic stress and high cortisol levels, which is why I completely forgot having that meeting. It was so stressful trying to piece everything together. Also, the amygdala, which we've talked about on previous podcasts is responsible for processing emotion. And that we know already becomes more active, which leads to heightened emotional responses because of the scanning of the environment, the feelings of anxiety, and even depression because of the increased level of cortisol. And that

SPEAKER_00:

makes sense because actually when I think about it, even though I mentioned when I'm stressed or anxious, I can get those sort of physical symptoms or fail to take care of my own self-care and well-being. I can forget things too. So when I look back on certain days when I was stressed, I've just sort of forgotten to do things. So I think there's that sort of cognitive aspect, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01:

I can do that too. I can forget. Forgetting is horrible, isn't it? I'm really super organized and I hate letting people down. But when I forget something or forget get that i'm supposed to have done something it really really bothers me so i do understand that

SPEAKER_00:

it reminds me of that sort of tunnel vision that i know i get sometimes when you can't really concentrate i don't know if you've experienced that

SPEAKER_01:

i completely get that tunnel vision and we know that going outside taking in the panorama is a really good way of calming the optic nerve and the connection with the sympathetic nervous system and activating the parasympathetic nervous system so we can have a calming effect and that's because chronic stress and burnout can trigger a chronic low-grade inflammatory response in the body, including the brain, which we know leads to cognitive impairments and contributes to symptoms like brain fog and lack of concentration. And that's exactly what happens when we have that tunnel vision. The words almost swim inside of our heads and we have that sense of fog. I'm very apparent of that. Luckily, I don't often feel that stress that I get the fog, but I can when I've worked too hard for too long.

SPEAKER_00:

When this is happening, what are the neurochemicals that are released? Could you start with cortisol

SPEAKER_01:

Cortisol, the stress hormone released by the adrenal gland in response to stress. It's the central player in a body stress response system. And it is, in a chronic stress situation, the hallmark of burnout because it can lead to really high elevated and sustained cortisol levels, which means that we are less responsive to that cortisol and it doesn't have the same impact in order to give us alertness and attention.

SPEAKER_00:

And what about adrenaline?

SPEAKER_01:

Epinephrine adrenaline. and noradrenaline are released in response to stress and play a role in the fight or flight response and they help to increase heart rate blood pressure and alertness but again prolonged exposure can contribute to anxiety and other negative health effects associated with burnout so it's not good to have too much if we want to get rid of adrenaline in the moment it's really good to just shake your arm shake your body because it can actually dissipate that adrenaline

SPEAKER_00:

so can you talk about what the impact of all this is

SPEAKER_01:

so dopamine first stress Stress can impact the brain's dopamine system. So while acute stress in the moment can temporarily increase the dopamine release and enhance motivation, prolonged or chronic stress, as we see in burnout, can lead to dysregulation of the dopamine system and results in the opposite happening, which is reduced motivation, anhedonia, which is the inability to experience pleasure, and we've talked already about feelings of detachment. Serotonin, which is another neurotransmitter we've talked about, which helps with mood regulation and emotional wellbeing. If we have too much stress again, it alters the serotonin function and the production of serotonin and can contribute to symptoms of depression and anxiety. And that's because we don't feel as connected to people.

SPEAKER_00:

And what are the other impacts of stress and cortisol on the positive neurotransmitters in systems?

SPEAKER_01:

Goodness, well, there is an acid called gamma amino bituric acid, which my brother will definitely call me and say I've said wrong.

SPEAKER_00:

I've heard of GABA.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, we just call it GABA. And it's an inhibitory neurotransmitter that helps to calm the brain and reduce anxiety. Chronic stress basically disrupts GABA activity and potentially leads to anxiety and difficulties in relaxation and sleep. Oh my goodness, we are really building the case for people looking after themselves, aren't we? And to take a break and to not just keep motoring on because it really does alter the way we release and transmit these neurotransmit And I

SPEAKER_00:

suppose we're also hopefully enticing people to read a few neuroscience books as well so they can pronounce these words even better than we can. Oh

SPEAKER_01:

my goodness, let's hope so.

SPEAKER_00:

What happens when we burn out and are faced with new stress? I know we've done some research on this, haven't we, in terms of resilience?

SPEAKER_01:

Experiencing burnout and facing new stress, it's quite an interesting thing because once we burnt out, we feel emotionally and physically depleted. And that depleted state makes us much more vulnerable to the negative effects of burnout. In other words, we're less likely to be able to rationalize because we're not able to engage the prefrontal cortex. And we find the small things much more challenging to cope with than we would normally do. I know that when I burnt out, I massively focused on the small stuff, let alone the big things. And I was exhausted at the end of the day after very minor things happening. And I very quickly got to the state of feeling completely overwhelmed. which had a real toll on my physical health. I was overweight. I wasn't fit enough. And it just meant that nothing was working. It just wasn't working well for me at all.

SPEAKER_00:

And so your coping mechanisms at the time, obviously, were just not effective during that burnout phase, Amanda, it seems. So with that sort of avoidance and overeating probably made it even worse, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, totally. I made all of the bad choices as a result, which gave me an even deeper sense of hopelessness and frustration with myself. And I really had very discontent language in my head about myself I really wasn't very kind to myself at all we lose that sense of kindness and rationality for ourselves and also discipline you know I wasn't strong enough to tell myself to get a grip and sort myself out and go for a walk or do healthy things sad to say I was a bit self-pitying

SPEAKER_00:

and there's an interesting balance isn't there between that discipline and focus that you found really difficult to keep up but also practicing compassion as well so So as much as you say you had to sort of give yourself a kick up the bum to do these things, then you were also really hard on yourself in terms of the way you were thinking. As a therapist, although I'm not an expert on things like mindfulness and meditation, they can be really effective because they can encourage people to be a lot more compassionate with themselves, which can be a really great antidote to that stress and burnout.

SPEAKER_01:

That's really useful, actually. So can mindfulness and meditation protect the brain then from your therapist's perspective from burnout? I

SPEAKER_00:

think the there's evidence to say that it can do. And I've certainly seen that in action as a way of promoting resilience to stress, for example, improving emotional regulation and obviously wellbeing in general. And I know that mindfulness and meditation practices, Amanda, are known to also reduce the body's stress response, which is really critical here. So regular practice we know can lower cortisol levels and reduce the overall perception of stress. And so by reducing the physiological and the psychological effects of stress, yeah, I think mindfulness and meditation can really help to prevent that chronic stress and that contributes to

SPEAKER_01:

burnout. moment and I will think about all the people or the situations in my life that I'm grateful for. And that really does help to reset me.

SPEAKER_00:

And boosting your levels of serotonin.

SPEAKER_01:

Indeed.

SPEAKER_00:

So Amanda, what other lifestyle changes or brain friendly practices, if you like, can we implement to help prevent burnout in a world that's so fast paced and unpredictable?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, we've talked about a few, but the thing that's the most important is establishing clear boundaries between work and personal life. And we can do that by having clear time management discipline or techniques and also by making sure that we shut our laptops or our phones at the end of the day. Another thing is to make sure we have breaks throughout the workday and we get outside in the fresh air and if at all possible we have enough physical activity because we need to get out, we need to get the sunlight, we need to walk, we need to get exercise and if we can we need to engage in the things that we love, hobbies, activities that bring us joy and relaxation and also spend time with loved ones and our friends. So that social support and network is really key. So if we want to sleep well and we want to reduce the cortisol that's in us at the end of the day, so learning and implementing good stress management techniques, breathing, the physiological side we talk about, muscle relaxation would be great. And if you're still struggling and none of those typical things that we're talking about now help, then the other thing to do is to seek professional help to go in our someone for their advice.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there is a lot of help out there and also charities, for example, Mind are very good to reach out to and obviously the Samaritans. It's something that when you recognize the signs, hopefully this podcast has thrown some light on that, then it's best to reach out and to connect and not just to keep on struggling on your own. I think that's one of the important messages is to connect. It now draws us to the end of this podcast. It's been fascinating for me. I always learn new things, but what i'd like to say is if you've enjoyed this episode please could you share with one other person who you think might be interested in listening be really grateful

SPEAKER_01:

i agree that would be lovely i think we do a lot to research and prepare for the podcast and we hope that people get the most out of it so that would be great and i want to just take the time to say thank you for listening and for sharing all of your feedback about our podcasts and what has been useful because it makes it all worthwhile and if you have any specific issues or topics that you'd be interested in hearing more about, could you please email us at thecpo at zircon-mc.co.uk. Whilst I've still got many different ideas about topics we could record in the future, making sure they're really focused on the things that you're interested in hearing about would be great.

SPEAKER_00:

If you're interested in receiving information about our Be Talent Resilience product or booking into our accreditation trainings, then also please feel free to contact us at the usual email address of hello at betalent.com or go to the website, the accreditation section to book your place on the next accreditation training. Thanks everybody for listening and thank you Amanda.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you Christian and I hope everyone has a wonderful and successful day.

People on this episode

Contributor

Dr Amanda Potter

Host
Contributor

Tim Hepworth

Host
Contributor

Caitlin Cooper

Co-host