Ep60 Transforming work habits for sustained high performance

Curious about the secrets behind sustainable high performance in organizations? Discover the insights of Amy Brand, a leading neuro and behavioral scientist, who has been named HR's Most Influential Thinker on LinkedIn for 2023. In this episode, Amy shares her remarkable journey from medicine to neuroscience, driven by her fascination with human behavior and brain science. Learn how her observations of underperforming professionals inspired her to combine neuroscience with organizational behavior, and hear about her early influences, including thought leaders like Stephen Pinker and Antonio de Macio.

Explore the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and psychology as Amy discusses the importance of evidence-based approaches to understanding human behavior. Find out how neuroscience can provide concrete data to validate everyday experiences, prompting us to rethink traditional work environments and practices. She delves into the role of individual differences and neurodiversity in shaping our interactions with the world. Amy also shares practical habits that can enhance productivity and creativity, such as taking breaks and engaging in activities like showering strategically.

Gain valuable insights into the complexities of change readiness within organizations, especially amidst technological advancements. Amy highlights the mental and physical energy required for adapting to change and underscores the crucial role of leadership in aligning teams with new visions. Discussing concepts like "mind frames" and the influence of our environment on behavior and emotions, Amy offers a comprehensive look at fostering sustainable high performance through intentionality. Tune in to learn how pro-social behaviors like trust and generosity can enhance psychological safety and optimal brain function, and connect with Amy for more resources on enhancing organizational performance.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr Amanda Potter, Chartered Psychologist and CEO of Zircon, and I'm Christian Lees-Bell, Senior Consultant at Zircon. Hello everybody.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Hi Christian.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Today we've invited Amy Brand, a neuro and behavioural scientist with a background in medicine, and Amy is the 2023 HR's Most Influential Thinker on LinkedIn. Author of three books, Neuroscience for Coaches, Engaged and Make your Brain Work. Welcome to the podcast, Amy.

Speaker 3: 0:34

Oh, thank you, I'm really excited to be with you guys.

Speaker 1: 0:37

We are too. Amanda. I wanted to ask you thanks for co-hosting this podcast with me again. You selected the topic today of sustainable high performance. How did that come about?

Speaker 2: 0:47

It came from a conversation with Amy, because she and I met following an introduction and recommendation by you, in fact.

Speaker 3: 0:55

Christian.

Speaker 2: 0:55

So you introduced me to Amy because of the work that she's doing and I'm fascinated by neuroscience, as you know, and I asked Amy if she wouldn't mind coming along and speaking about how we can create a more sustainable culture of high performance in teams in organizations, because that's very much where the work she's doing is based, and also Amy has such deep experience around neuroscience. I know we're going to learn a lot today.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Yeah, amy, thanks for agreeing to come on the podcast. I know that originally you received a LinkedIn message from me because I'd been, you know, reading and following your work on LinkedIn, because you know I'm fairly active on LinkedIn. So thanks for giving us a try and coming on the podcast, because I know you get a fair few other requests to do podcasts like this. So, yeah, we are really, really happy.

Speaker 3: 1:42

As I say, I'm excited for the conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:45

Would you mind introducing yourself first of all for people who don't know you as well as we do.

Speaker 3: 1:49

Yeah, of course. So my name's Amy. I live in Warwickshire with a husband, a daughter and a dog. I like things like the sunshine, the gym, wine and chocolate. So you can see why I need to like some of those because I do like the others of those and I've always been fascinated, I think, by how people work. So just observing humans and seeking to understand well, how does this work, like what's going on behind what we're seeing, what's underpinning that, so I think that's been a strong driver for me.

Speaker 1: 2:20

And is that one of the reasons why you started working in this space?

Speaker 3: 2:25

I think so. Ever since I was little I was fascinated by humans and I sort of was only really exposed to traditional type jobs. So my mum tells a story of when I was three years old, I think. She was having some sort of examination going on possibly an intimate examination at the doctor's surgery, and you know, the male, stereotypical doctor at the time turned to me and said, because I was so curious and interested in what was going on oh, when you grow up, do you want to be a nurse.

Speaker 3: 2:49

And apparently me in all my wisdom said no, when I grow up I want to be a doctor. And I just thought that that was the way that we could understand how humans worked and how the body and the being worked. So did go into medicine, but all the while was sort of all my personal reading, and the suitcases full of books I'd take on holidays would be more about this emerging field into the brain science and what we were learning there. And I remember when I used to go to Waterstones there would only be this tiny, narrow bookcase of these books of the emerging thinkers at the time, and I still think some of their insights are amazing today.

Speaker 1: 3:26

Do you have one particular book or seminal text that you remember and had a bit of an impact?

Speaker 3: 3:31

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, stephen Pinker, back in the day, I think, really gripped me with some of his thinking, and then Antonio de Macio, I think, has written beautiful works that continue to inspire and equip, and then there will be many others, but yes, they would be the starting points, I think, for me.

Speaker 1: 3:52

How come you decided to move away from medicine towards bringing neuroscience to industry?

Speaker 3: 3:57

I think there were multiple factors, as there probably are for many people making transitions. I did love medicine but I was starting to realize that I wasn't perhaps the best at staying up all night quite often is required within that role, and I also really was recognizing that I was not so fascinated by the pancreas as I was by other perhaps organs the brain and I was starting to be exposed to things outside of medicine for the first time the brain and I was starting to be exposed to things outside of medicine for the first time. You know I'd been very focused, narrow minded I guess, on the sciences, the passing the exams, the getting into medical school. And then I was there and it was really interesting and I did some sort of summer work at my dad's law firm and I was seeing all these amazingly skilled, knowledgeable lawyers who weren't fulfilling their potential. They weren't doing the job in a way that was logical and sensible, that fulfilled them and sustained their wellbeing and all of those things. And I just started then sort of seeing that there was this whole other world out there and while medicine helps to keep people's physical bodies and, to a degree, mental wellbeing healthy, there's more that can be done.

Speaker 3: 5:06

And with everything I was learning about how the brain worked, and then everything I was seeing in organizations of how they were designed to maybe not honor how the brain works, I thought, oh, maybe there is some good that could be done here. Of course, I wasn't qualified. I didn't finish the medical degree, so I had to start from scratch and build something, and nobody would employ me. I was young. All I really had was ideas and knowledge that had been accrued through this process. So we just started knocking on doors and talking to CEOs and they would say well, why do I need to know about the brain? And I'd be like why do you not need to know about the brain? It's driving what all of your people are doing.

Speaker 2: 5:46

So things sort of went from there. How amazing. And the whole topic today is around sustainable high performance. So is that really where your business has been driven, would you say, or what's the main focuses for you and your business when you're talking to organizations?

Speaker 3: 6:02

I think everything hangs off this sustainable high performance. So most organizations are looking for their people to perform and I don't like the word, I wouldn't choose that word, but I would probably phrase it as contribute so we're looking for our employees to contribute their skills, their energy, their time to whatever the organization is designed to do, and then we want to contribute in the best way that they can, but we don't want to burn them out in the process of doing that. It doesn't make sense to burn them out from any perspective, let alone a sort of moral, ethical one. So we want to sustain this ability to continue to contribute everything that we're capable of. And I just think understanding how the brain works, how humans work, feeds into how we design organizations, how we work with people, how we orchestrate teams, everything in order for them to contribute everything that they're capable of.

Speaker 2: 6:56

What does the neuroscience add then?

Speaker 3: 6:58

Well, I don't know what you would think it adds For me. I think it gives weight to experiences. Would think it adds For me. I think it gives weight to experiences. It's a critical lens and people have experiences throughout their lives. They know, for example, that their best ideas typically don't come to them when they're sat in front of the computer.

Speaker 3: 7:17

Most audiences I ask where do you get your best ideas Hands down? The answer is the shower. And if that's really the case, if their experiences are right and there is the shower, and if that's really the case, you know, if their experiences are right and there is a lot of neuroscience that would indicate that this would be a logical conclusion then what do we actually need our people to be doing? Well, taking more showers if we want more innovative ideas. Rather than make them sit at the computer screen to come up with their genius insight, as many organizations, you'll sit around the table with your laptops open. It's like right. How are we going to solve this problem? People, the answers don't typically come at that point. So why do we keep doing that? And why do we keep sort of saying people can't possibly be working if they're taking a walk Like? I just think we're a bit outdated still.

Speaker 2: 7:59

I completely agree. What I love about it is that I love the neuroscience, and I'm obviously newer to neuroscience than you are, even though I did psychopharmacology and psychopathology at my undergraduate degree about 30 years ago. I'm still learning. I'm definitely learning on this path, but what I love about the neuroscience is the evidence based aspect of it.

Speaker 2: 8:20

With psychology it's so much softer and there's so many interpretations and as psychologists get trained to use very generic, general language, could, maybe, might there's a tendency to because, in fact, even with the BPS verification of our decision styles questionnaire, we got told that our language was too definitive. Because I personally struggle with this very soft language, I like to be a bit more definitive, particularly because clients want to hear so what does this mean? And you want to give them advice, if you like. And so what I love about the neuroscience and what you've just said about the shower example, is that actually there's data and there's evidence. If you do this, it will help you to release certain neurotransmitters and hormones, it'll make you feel a certain way and therefore you're more likely to think in a certain way and be open to ideas or innovation, for example. So that's why I love the neuroscience and I think it's got such a place.

Speaker 3: 9:19

So I think it's brilliant actually that we're talking about it today. Do you know, amanda? I love what you've said because it's exactly what's attracted me to it, coming from a very science-y background and mathematical. It's all very right and wrong. My daughter's studying history at the moment and the history teacher says you know, we teach history differently. Now we teach them. This is one source and this is another source. And my daughter said she's autistic. And just last night she said I don't understand If it's history it's happened. It either happened or it didn't. Well, it might have been like this or it might have been like that. It doesn't seem to compute for her, but so many times when we're working with organisations, I am saying the thing that you hate saying to your clients, which is it depends.

Speaker 3: 10:02

And although we've got this massive evidence that is binary to a degree we do we can see, for example, what regions of the brain are lighting up. Still there are variables that then mean that it might go in this direction or it might go in that direction. Even something like oxytocin, that's had wonderful spotlights put on it over the last 10, 15 years. When that research started to happen, we thought it was in all people having this effect, and then more research emerged and we're like, oh actually, in these people, for example people with borderline personality disorder, it can have a different effect in these contexts and it helps build our overall understanding of this individual chemical. But we've still got the challenge as human beings, we our overall understanding of this individual chemical, but we've still got the challenge as human beings.

Speaker 3: 10:48

We've got all of this experience, all of this input that's actually shaped the neural environment individually. You know, christians, amanda's, my neural environments will be different and if we all see the same film, there's a likelihood that we'll all perceive it in a particular way and feel a certain way and have particular regions of our brain become more active at particular points. But it's not guaranteed, because I might have had challenging experience with one of the scenes. That means that this romantic, wonderful love scene, where I'm supposed to feel all warm inside, actually has the opposite effect on me. So I think we need to still have some humility and caution around the neuroscience and the evidence. Do you know?

Speaker 2: 11:28

what that's very humbling because In the world of psychology I've always said that we strive to remove subjectivity, that we're never going to achieve objectivity, but we're always striving to remove the subjective and the bias from any process or from any conversation or decision making.

Speaker 2: 11:46

And I've always felt or believed from the research that the neuroscience is a bit more robust because there's a lot more data, a bit more tangible scientific data. I know psychology is a science but it feels a bit more robust and the evidence suggests it's a bit more robust. But I take your point and it makes me think about the previous podcast we recorded with Dr Ian Eyston and we were looking at neurodiversity and the conversation we had around compassion and self-compassion and could someone who is neurodiverse or autistic be prone to, or could they demonstrate compassion? He said, well, of course it'd just be different, and that's very much your point, wasn't it with the personality point, which is that everybody is different and everybody has different experiences that contribute to how they interpret information and stimuli and stressors which will have an impact on the release of the transmitters. So yeah, I completely understand that I'm still going to stick with my original theory, which is neuroscience is more robust and objective and evidence-based, but I'd love to continue with this debate, so that's good.

Speaker 1: 12:52

I'm curious when you talk about sustainable high performance to clients, what spin-off'm curious when you talk about sustainable high performance to clients, what spin-off conversation happen when you talk about this topic?

Speaker 3: 13:00

Pretty much it can go anywhere, because if we're talking about how can a human give all that they are capable of giving, like, contribute, perform in the way that means it's the best it can possibly be, so high performance. What high performance actually looks like is completely variable. It might be that in someone's role, high performance means that they are engaging all of their colleagues and helping them to be at the top of their game. It might be that they are responsible for coming up with all these new, innovative ideas. It might be that they are responsible for communicating the vision and leading things forward, managing people, we would recommend, in a coaching style based way. It might be that their well-being needs to be attended to before they have got a full enough cup to be able to then give to others, or even really, really basic things, which I still find myself telling people all the time. You know, your people need to sleep and thankfully a spotlight again has been shed on sleep. It's no longer a badge of honor to say, oh, you know, I only got four hours last night. I just keep plowing through the work and say, well, we've got evidence that would suggest that's a really bad plan, and that's some of the evidence that, amanda, I'm sure you love because it is very concrete. You know there is a very, very, very tiny percentage of people who actually can work well on a tiny amount of sleep and yet most people think, oh no, I'm fine, but actually it's probably worse than drink driving a lot of the time.

Speaker 3: 14:30

So the conversation can go in multiple different directions, and I always like to think of us as detectives, and I really encourage leaders in organizations to put on their detective hat and be curious If we are looking to create environments where people can give what they are capable of giving, for their benefit as well as for others. I think it's a privilege to work and I think if we're in the right fit of role, then it can be incredibly healthy and life-giving to contribute, be more autonomous, take responsibility, maybe for learning, maybe for results. It seems quite a common request of organizations that we're hearing. The way that they're actually conditioning their people to not be responsible and take control and be proactive is hidden all over the place. So if you have a detective-like approach, you can go in and go.

Speaker 3: 15:39

Well, where is it that we're encouraging people not to do this, although we might tell them on one level to do it, we're then actually communicating in a whole range of different ways, the opposite. So is it any wonder that they're not doing what we're wanting them to do? And although that sounds non like evidency, it all stems from, for me, understanding the hot and cool networks in the brain which links to daniel kahneman's system one and system two. There's a parallel in neuroscience, so we look at the regions of the brain from a neuroscience perspective that are linking together to make this network, and then, in psychology, the other elements of research that take place, but together. Then we see if we just tell someone to do something, that's not likely to be effective. And yet how many organizations are deeply examining how they are communicating, not just what they're saying, but what they're doing. That's taking people off course.

Speaker 1: 16:31

Some of the positive and negative reinforcements right, so I suppose that's some of that is that unconscious habits that they're maybe unknowingly reinforcing through some of those secondary messages interesting about sleep because that came out really strong and clear the important sleep in your Engage book.

Speaker 2: 16:58

That was one of the messages I really definitely got, which is why are we encouraging people to have that badge of honor of relentlessness of? I managed to get away with so few hours sleep. And it's really interesting because Sarah and I had a conversation yesterday. I've had a pretty intense week this week Brilliant, I'd like to say. I've had a brilliant, brilliant week this week Amazing client meetings, amazing client projects but it has been pretty hard going and Sarah and I were chatting about the fact that our dialogue can sometimes be more maybe me than her is.

Speaker 2: 17:32

I talk about how back to back I am and I talk about how tough it's been. Almost as a badge of honor, am I looking for a supporting well done Amanda from her? Maybe I am, but it's very interesting that by me doing that, I'm almost creating a standard for the team to say that's the right thing that everybody should be doing. But actually it's not, because we all need time to think, we all need a gap, we all need a bit of space in our diaries and I'm always striving for it. So I really like that.

Speaker 3: 18:01

I love your recognition that we all need a gap because, especially with the move to so many virtual or hybrid ways of working, the number of people that confess that they go from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, back to back, and we have the experiences and self-reports of what that's doing to people and how that's affecting people. But we also have the neuroscience, which is predictive. There's time and time again, people share experiences with me and I go. Well, of course, like the neuroscience would totally predict that that's the case.

Speaker 3: 18:34

But if you think about the different networks that you're activating in your brain, if you are in a meeting, you likely want your task positive type networks on. You want to be focused, attentive, you want your prefrontal cortex heavily engaged and you want to be really present. And, yeah, it's very energy intensive. So that is going to deplete your energy. And then, if you're doing that back to back, when are you actually allowing the deeper regions of your brain that have also been listening in they've been there but to process and then your default mode network to switch on, and then the ideas to stepping away from your desk for these people that are in back-to-back meetings, going for a walk, doing the washing up having a shower. Whatever it is, I strategically shower.

Speaker 3: 19:21

I want people to know, I think showers are a gift. Yes, and if you're going to have those gold dust moments, I don't want to waste them first thing in the morning well, unless I'm seeing people. But I want to wait and and have the shower moment when I've got some things to percolate and come up. Sorry, I wasn't planning on sharing.

Speaker 2: 19:38

I love that you did. I love that you did. I know I would think of you just before you come into a meeting or just after Amy's popping for a shower. I so love that. Do you know what?

Speaker 2: 19:47

Yesterday I ran a half day session but it finished at 1.30. So it was a late lunch and then we overran by 15 minutes and I'd asked another client to come and join me at the hotel so that we could have a two and a half hour design meeting. We had no break. So I'd run a really intense but brilliant morning with a client up until 1.30. Then this two and a half hour meeting without a break, and we got in the car and my colleague Antonia was driving and she's awesome for driving. I opened my laptop and I was broken. You know when you've got no words left. I knew I had to clear some really urgent emails. So I was sitting working while she was driving, which is super cool. But Antonia was talking to me and I couldn't quite process the words to even speak in return and I needed the evening to decompress. And I was saying to Sarah I don't know how I used to do intense days and meetings and then go drinking with the client in the evening.

Speaker 2: 20:40

I don't know how I did it. I can't do it anymore. I need to have that space just to re-energize and just go for a walk or go outside and get some fresh air. And in fact the room didn't really have windows. So you know, it's just one of those. All of the things were against me yesterday no fresh air, no windows, no daylight plus intensity, but also a brilliant meeting. But it is so interesting the impact the small habits now have in my life going for an early walk with the dog, taking in the panorama, these things have such a positive impact on how I feel, so when they're missing, it really does make a difference for me.

Speaker 3: 21:16

Yeah, and those different experiences and habits. You know you were on a high we could hear it in your voice from how the morning had gone and then getting to wrestle with those things in the design meeting with the client. That again is a positive experience and it's absolutely conceivable that your brain did an amazing job in that. But then what I think is also really key is that you've got the wisdom. You've got the knowledge to not then, say, sit down with an important person in the evening to make decisions about what colour you're painting the dining room or something of that nature, where you find then sort of tensions arise and with the way most people are working, we are often depleted by the evening.

Speaker 3: 21:54

So whether it's a little routine to transition into the evening or something, but when you look at us holistically, we need healthy relationships at home in order to be able to contribute our best at work. So there will be times where we do have to make important decisions at home. So how are we doing things so that we can do that and still do our best at work? So I think the direction of travel from organizations, speaking very generally, is positive. There is more awareness, there is more acknowledgement that we are a whole human being that goes both to work and at home, and that we do need to be mindful of those other aspects. But are you hopeful for the future with what you?

Speaker 2: 22:32

see in organizations I really am. I think they're much more curious now, particularly recognizing that the hybrid environment is not always as helpful for people, for their resilience, for their mental well-being, and that employees seem to be operating more effectively and productively either in office or completely remote settings. So I think they want to support and help their people. They want to create psychologically safe, resilient environments. Of course they want to have high performance, but they want to do it in an ethical, sustainable, caring way is my view. And there is the recognition that the hybrid world that everybody wants. Nobody wants to really be told either you've got to come in to work all the time or you've got to stay at home all the time. They want the flexibility and the agility for their lives, but the reality is it's not necessarily the best thing for individuals because they're neither in one place or another and they miss out. But that's another whole podcast.

Speaker 1: 23:35

Amy, bias is such an important topic and we've talked about the importance of bias, negative positive effects over a couple of podcasts that we've done and status quo bias in particular has such an impact on how we face up to change and can get in the way of us achieving our potential. So how do you advise clients to overcome and be more aware of this bias and its impact on our thinking, emotions and behavior?

Speaker 3: 23:59

So when people have a high status quo type bias, I think the key is to be activating dopamine in an anticipatory type way. We need to paint the picture of what the new thing is and allow the brain to then respond to that and trigger goal-directed behaviors that are going to take us closer to that end. It is a really common challenge that organizations share and, depending on the context and how it's manifesting, our advice is different. There are occasions where the habits of people are actually what's holding people back, and we look at what we call change readiness, but from a neural perspective. So we look at what are the ingredients someone needs in order to be ready to change. There could be very valid reasons why someone is not finding your new proposition very attractive.

Speaker 3: 24:55

Tech changes in organizations is something that almost every company goes through at some point or another, and you can see the dread and the fear on people's faces when this snazzy new system is announced, and that might be because they've had traumatic experiences in the past with these changes and the new system not working and them being penalized for it at all.

Speaker 3: 25:18

It's that they've got very reasonable objections to this change that need to be addressed. It might be that as individuals they are worn out, and change takes energy. It takes more energy for the brain to wire these new circuits and do things differently, so we can't just say come on, get on with it. We've got to first acknowledge where someone is, actually look at what needs to happen for the change to occur, but then it does come down to the existing situation being positioned as less attractive and the new situation being positioned as more attractive to trigger this chemical response in the brain. That then means that we're more likely to take the action that will move us forward. We're not in a situation where we can just give people the injection to trigger the chemical response, and that's a whole thing for the future.

Speaker 3: 26:14

Whether or not that happens, I'm not sure. But stimulating different regions of the brain to try and trigger new activity, again, it's not something that's anywhere near happening yet. But when our leaders convey desires, visions, missions that they want people to get on board with, that's kind of what they're doing. They need to activate the emotional regions of the brain. They need to activate as many of the regions to work together as a network as possible so that people do lean in and get on board with what needs to happen. And then you've got all the other supporting scaffolding stuff like reducing the uncertainty, the communications. So I think taking in isolation, reducing the status quo bias, is rarely something that we do. We look at the whole picture, which is where it can get challenging.

Speaker 3: 27:03

I'm sure you've experienced working with organizations and they say we need X. And you're like tell me more about where you're trying to get to. No, we need X, okay, why? Why is it? You think you need X? Well, because of ABC, okay. And if you considered, you know, gef, oh no, we haven't considered GEF. We're like well, the problem might be GEF rather than A or X. Again, humans are complex.

Speaker 2: 27:24

It's tricky, so tricky, and you've mentioned habits and I love work on habits and we published a podcast on habits and I really liked your Vimeo video, which I found on LinkedIn on your profile, because you talked about harnessing the whole brain potential when you're creating new habits. So could you just help me understand what do you mean about harnessing the whole brain potential in order to implement those habits in a more sustainable way?

Speaker 3: 27:53

So this started when we looked at typical ways of working and people would be very prefrontal cortex dominant. This is not an official term at all, but people are very in their head, very thinking very focused, analytical, exactly.

Speaker 3: 28:11

Yes, colloquially we understand each other. It's great. But there's all of the deeper structures of the brain which we know are so important in so many things. When I was at medical school, we didn't know the cerebellum was important in all of the things that we now know it is. So we used to. Oh, it's for movement, you know, and disorders of movement, and that's why we pay attention to it. But actually it's involved in emotion too.

Speaker 3: 28:34

I used to think if there was a magic wand and I could change myself, I would turn off emotions. This was probably when I was about 17, 18. I thought, gosh, emotions, they just get in the way of things. And it was probably Antonio Damasio that sort of switched me on to oh, my word, gosh. We really need to respect these emotion things. They are impactful and influential and I still think they can be challenging.

Speaker 3: 28:53

But our whole brain works together. And when we only focus on strengthening one network to the neglect of the others, for example, when we're not giving ourselves time to activate the default network and do the mind wandering type activities, then we don't get the best we can from it. And when we are looking at how that mirrors in the world. When we talk about redesigning things and helping people create more helpful habits, we we always pay attention to three things, which are the mind frames, so how information is being filtered.

Speaker 3: 29:31

A lot of people will talk about mindsets Mindsets we think of as one component, but there's also our perceptual filters, our mental states, our physical wellbeing, so anything that affects how the data is getting into our brain and then being interpreted. So our mind frames. Then our behaviors, what we're actually doing, and our environment, because our physical environment is just so influential and, again, most of the time we talk about this surface level of things, but we don't become these detectives and look around at our physical environment and go, well, how is that influencing me, how is that influencing my state, how is that influencing my behaviours? And actually we know so much comes from the hot network that's all triggered by our environment. So why are we neglecting something that we know is so influential?

Speaker 2: 30:19

What's so interesting is how all of those things impact our emotions and therefore our internal dialogue. So that's the big thing that I'm really keen to understand, which is how the different neurotransmitters impact how we feel and therefore how we talk to ourselves particularly, even more so than how we talk to our friends and our family and our colleagues, because how I feel has a big impact on how I think and the words that I tell myself.

Speaker 3: 30:48

I completely agree, and being that curious about our own internal dialogue can be scary, you know, and it's why it's amazing we've got such great coaches and counselors and people and friends who will listen in and reflect back to us. Oh, do you know? You say that phrase quite a lot. I used to have a phrase that I would say which was I've got so much to do, and I would always be saying, oh, I've just got so much to do. And the reality was I felt like I had so much to do, but actually that was a terrible phrase that wasn't helping me. The state that that triggered in me was overwhelm and stress and it just was totally unhelpful. So I sat down one day. I was like, well, what story am I going to tell myself? Because I still think I've got lots to do and I decided it needed to be true. I think I don't think it's helpful to make up completely untrue stories to tell ourselves. So the story I came up with was I'm currently working on the highest priority.

Speaker 2: 31:48

Nice, I do the same. I always apparently say I'm back to back and I am back to back. I've always got back to back meetings, so I think I need to find something a little bit more helpful as well, instead of I'm back to back, can't think of what it might be yet, but if anyone who's listening has got a better suggestion for what I might tell myself, I'd be very grateful.

Speaker 1: 32:08

It's a bit of positive reframing, isn't?

Speaker 2: 32:10

it?

Speaker 1: 32:10

Yes, indeed, I know, I've used that, even though I'm usually very busy during my workday, there's always five minutes every few hours just to rest or to do the physiological sigh, you know, as you've spoken about Amanda before. So yeah, I know I use the even though framework, where you're framing it in a more positive way, but they're not lying to yourself as well. You've still got back to back meetings, but it's more of a positive perception of it.

Speaker 2: 32:32

Yeah, I think I'm going to need to work on that.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Not sure. Yeah, we can't come out with a perfect sentence, right? Now we work on it together.

Speaker 2: 32:43

Yeah indeed. So, amy, you've written three incredible books. Do you have a favourite, or do you have one that particularly resonates for you that you would suggest readers go to first?

Speaker 3: 32:51

I only have one child, but I have a feeling it might be like a similar scenario if you have multiple children, in that I love them all Very good and I like them in different ways, like they've each got different strengths.

Speaker 3: 33:02

So normally I'd say if someone likes textbooky stuff and they want sort of all of the details and to go through things in a really logical way, then it's neuroscience for coaches, because that's got all of the facts and the different brain regions and brain chemicals. Make your brain work is great for those who want something that's more story-based and gentle and accessible. And then engage was really written for people in organizations working with others, wanting to get the best out of people, and it just when I was looking at all of the research I thought motivating people, it just goes so up and down, whereas if you can engage people, then they're empowered, they're equipped and they can run with things. So, yeah, love them all in different ways. Well, how brilliant.

Speaker 1: 33:45

I'm wondering now what tip or action would you like to leave with our listeners to create more sustainable high performance?

Speaker 3: 33:53

I think the one tip would be to be intentional. So use your environment, use your states to help you trigger different habits. That will create different results. We often will take the time to audit our finances or audit our wardrobes, but perhaps not how we work and the spaces that we're working in.

Speaker 2: 34:14

I find, for example, if I have a clear desk and I'm intentional about my workspace, I have a clearer mind. I always talk about tidy house, tidy mind. So if I'm intentional, then I'm much, much better, I'm much calmer. But if I go into a crazy house and my son has left me a delightful mess as I walk in the door, I don't have a calm mind. So the first thing I have to do is to calm my environment, to calm my mind. So I really like that.

Speaker 3: 34:38

Absolutely, and if you've got a particular challenge that you're wanting to come up with a genius answer to, then intentionally go to a space that might help trigger some different thoughts. Go to a museum, go to an art gallery, go to a park If you need to refresh yourself. Nature has got stack loads of evidence that will help to cleanse the brain, essentially. So go into nature. So don't just think that work has to take place in front of a laptop at your desk. Use different spaces for different purposes and think about what state do I actually nature? So don't just think that work has to take place in front of a laptop at your desk.

Speaker 3: 35:06

Use different spaces for different purposes and think about what state do I actually need to be in? Do I need to be curious before I enter into this? Do I need to be analytical? Do I need to be ruthless or do I need to be really compassionate? If you want to be really compassionate, it might be that you look at a photo of someone that you really love and you would want treated really well before you then go into that interaction. There are all sorts of different bodies of research that just show that what we've connected with before we go into something will mean that our state is different, and then the result will be different.

Speaker 2: 35:41

So what comes next then for you, amy, if you look into the next five years of consulting and the research that you're doing? What are you looking at now?

Speaker 3: 35:49

So, my next focus is pro-social behaviours, and the reason for that is that when organisations ask you, know what's the magic bullet, how is it that we really unlock this potential in our people? It comes back to people having neurological environments that they can do their best thinking, do their best creativity and then contribute what they're capable of, and if they're not safe, then they can't have this higher level of functionality. There's a lot written and explored around psychological safety, which I think is great. I think there's an other side of this, that actually how we're treating one another and with all of the AI that's coming in, and how we're relating to this new world.

Speaker 3: 36:33

There is something incredibly powerful about pro-social behaviors all the things like trust, generosity, fairness, altruism. There's a whole range of different behaviors and I think we've lost some of the humanity in the ways that we work and the ways that we deal with people and, unfortunately, our brains still need it. So if we're going, oh, we don't have time for that, Like, I understand that, but the brain still needs it and it's not going to work well without it. So but if we can shine a spotlight on look, what does it actually mean? Then again leaders have got the evidence-based information they need to make decisions. That's going to enable them to work with their organisation and the people in the best way. So I think the rest of my life will probably be around equipping organisations to understand how their people's brains work so that they can do things better. The problems may change, but I think the research around the pro-social stuff is really exciting.

Speaker 2: 37:27

You are doing such valuable work. Please keep going, amy, keep writing, keep consulting, and so if someone wants to get in touch with you or to talk to you about the work that you're doing in organisations, how do they contact you?

Speaker 3: 37:41

Synaptic Potential website or Amy Brand website or LinkedIn. We like sharing lots of stuff that we know organisations find valuable. So any of those ways. And then, yeah, I'd love to have chats and coffees and explore how your organisation can be even more successful than it already is.

Speaker 2: 38:00

Thank, you and all of your books are available on Amazon and also Engaged is on Audible.

Speaker 1: 38:06

I've really enjoyed the conversation. I'm still learning about this topic, so thanks for coming on the podcast. Unfortunately, it draws us to the end of the session today, so, amy, thanks very much again. Hopefully we'll have a chance to continue this conversation around some of these topics, and pro-social behavior sounds like something that I'd like to explore more as well. Our listeners, if you've enjoyed this episode, it'd be fantastic if you could share with one person who you think might be interested in listening. That would be amazing. And if you've got any questions, particular topics that you'd like to hear more about, then please get in touch with us and send us an email, and we just want to say thank you for listening and I hope you have a wonderful and successful day.