The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep53 The neuroscience of sunk cost: why do we throw good money after bad

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol • Season 3 • Episode 53

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With January being the month of tightening our financial belts we are looking at the concept of sunk cost and why we submit to the bias of sunk cost and throw good money after bad? The sunk cost fallacy is a cognitive bias that occurs when people continue to invest in a decision or project based on the resources (time, money, or effort) they have already put into it, despite the evidence suggesting that these investments are no longer rational or beneficial. Why do we do this and how can we stop? Our neuroscience research has the answers.
Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/
To follow Zircon on LinkedIn and to be first to hear about podcasts, publications and news, please like and follow us: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zircon-consulting-ltd/
To access the research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://zircon-mc.co.uk/zircon-white-papers.php
For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform as mentioned in this podcast please contact Amanda via email: TheCPO@zircon-mc.co.uk.

Timestamps

Sunk Costs

·       00:00 – Introduction to Sunk Costs

·       01:11 – There’s a moment when this should stop…

·       02:12 – I paid for it; I’m eating it!

·       03:31 – Bad investments

·       04:10 – Confounding Crypto

·       05:05 – Why did I waste my time with Heroes?

·       06:27 – Something will turn around for sure…

I made some mistakes…

·       07:19 – Saving face over money

·       08:03 – Just stop investing in this.

·       09:12 – Neuroscience!

·       09:43 – Looking back in regret

·       10:46 – Reality is a bit blurry

·       11:44 – A rewarding prospect

·       13:03 – It’s too painful to leave it all…

Past blues

·       14:08 – Emotions are running high

·       14:45 – You’re an addict.

·       16:12 – We miss you Matt…

·       16:49 – Cognitive Dissonance

·       17:57 – Don’t dwell on the past too much

·       19:08 – Egomania

The Body Pit

·       20:26 – The hardest part… is letting go

·       22:03 – This is going to hurt

·       23:10 – Functional Stupidity revisited

·       23:45 – Moving on

·       25:18 – Keeping an eye on the future

·       25:46 – The end.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

To follow Zircon on LinkedIn and to be first to hear about podcasts, publications and news, please like and follow us: https://www.linkedin.com/company/betalent-by-zircon/

To access the research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://www.betalent.com/research

For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform please contact: Hello@BeTalent.com

SPEAKER_00:

Why do we submit to the bias of sunk cost and throw good money after bad? Neuroscience has the answers. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr. Amanda Potter, chartered psychologist and CEO of Zircon. And I'm Christian Leesbell, Senior Consultant at Zircon. Hello, everybody.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Hi everyone. Hi, Christian.

SPEAKER_00:

Today we're going to be sharing our insight and research looking at the neuroscience of the sunk cost fallacy. So this is a new topic for the podcast, isn't it, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter:

It is, and I think it's a brilliant one because all of us are susceptible to sunk cost in decision making. And it's a perfect topic to cover, particularly as we're going to be broadcasting this after Christmas in January, where many of us are looking at all the money we've spent on Christmas and other festivities.

SPEAKER_00:

So we possibly might have some regrets, hopefully not too many.

Dr Amanda Potter:

No, hopefully not too many. And the point is it's all about understanding the decisions that we make and the biases that might be at play so we can be more attentive to those decisions and be more objective about our decisions.

SPEAKER_00:

That sounds good. So what is this thing called the sunk cost fallacy?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So sunk cost is a cognitive bias that occurs when people continue to invest in a decision or a project, even though the evidence suggests that the investments are no longer rational or beneficial and that we should actually stop.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I may have done that myself once or twice. Um, where does it come from?

Dr Amanda Potter:

It's basically a bias. We're driven by the need to avoid loss, and we have a fear of failure that's incredibly powerful that drives us to continue with something that we should probably stop and admit isn't working. And that could be time, it could be money, it could be effort. Something that we invest in in some way.

SPEAKER_00:

So, in other words, it's when we let our past investments influence our decisions about future actions, particularly if they are sinking.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yeah, and as I say, it's not just about money, it's relationships too, or it's anything that you invest time, money, effort into.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you give me an example?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Food's a great example for me because I might go to a restaurant and order something, a cake, for example, or a dessert, and I might be a little bit full, but I will have spent the money on it by ordering it. Or I might not like it, but I'll continue eating it because I've paid for it. That's a good example of sunk cost. You've already spent the money. There's no reason to continue investing in the enjoyment if you're not actually enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you know, I can relate to that as well. I've many a time just finished a plate of food just for the sake of it, or I've spent some money on it, or been in a nice restaurant, not even really enjoying it. I know another example I can think of is when I used to visit a restaurant, which was one of our favourites. The food was always fantastic. That the last literally four or five times we've been there, it's just gone downhill, but we keep on going to that restaurant in the hope that it might potentially one day get better.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And that's a great example of something we're going to talk about later, which is cognitive dissonance. You've got two competing beliefs there. One which is it was always good in the past, and then the evidence more recently that it's not been quite as good. And what happens is the brain goes for the past, it goes for the previous evidence rather than the current or future evidence. And so we stick with what we know, even though it's not potentially a good idea to do so. So food's a really good example for both of us. No surprise, Christian, as we're both foodies. But most of the time when we're talking about sun costs, we are talking about money. So we're talking about gambling, investing in stocks and shares, or lending money, or anything where it's about continuing to hand over money of some kind to another person, organization, or investment.

SPEAKER_00:

When I started thinking about this podcast, it was money, investing, which was one of the topics that I thought of immediately. And I had that experience myself with uh Bitcoin a few years back when I initially won a little bit of money or invested some money and it went up, but uh there was a point where it just kept on going down for many years, but I kept hold of it in the hope that uh it might one day go back up again. Why do we do it? Why did I do that?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Goodness, you're braver than I am. I didn't even consider Bitcoin because I'm low on risk, which we know. You did exactly what the research says you would do. The suggestion is that if I continue with this or I hold on to it or I continue spending on it, it's not a loss yet. Therefore, I haven't yet failed because it could always go up.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I see. Yeah.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So it's that fear of failure, which means that you would prefer to hold on to something because at the point you admit that it hasn't worked, you admit that it's a loss.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you're right. I just remember pouring through books and doing research on Bitcoin and what might happen about it, and that amount of time that I invested made it really difficult to give it up at the time.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Money's a hard thing, isn't it? It's tricky.

SPEAKER_00:

Really is. So to sum up, when you've continued to invest in something, when you should have stopped, this is a sunk cost, right?

Dr Amanda Potter:

That's completely it.

SPEAKER_00:

And I guess there are lots of other examples which we could both share about when we've started projects or when we've been involved or invested in something and realised in hindsight that we've held on too long. Amanda, do you have any examples yourself?

Dr Amanda Potter:

There's simple ones like TV series where the first series is brilliant. So you watch the second, it's better, it's good. And then third gets a bit worse and a bit worse. And by the end, you think, why am I watching this? It's emotionally more painful to say, I'm no longer going to watch this TV series that I've invested in than it is to continue watching it, even though you're not enjoying it, which I think is amazing that the brain tells you to just continue. But the one I was thinking about was a work one, which was around product development for Be Talent. Over the years, we've started and abandoned product development. And there was one in particular that I have mentioned on a previous podcast that we invested research and design time in for over 10 years. And what I realized is that my thinking and the research had changed quite significantly, and I needed to stop throwing good time after bad and just call time on it and close that product and stop selling it, which we did eventually, but it took a long time for me to be courageous enough to say, actually, that product is not one we should be offering. I just kept hanging on to it for years. Maybe it would turn into something incredible. It didn't.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm sure you're not the only one that's done that, particularly if you own a business or you're starting a new project and you've taken it's taken a long time to get it off the ground. I recall when I used to work for myself a few years ago, remember persisting in a particular approach or action or a marketing plan because I thought it should work or others were making it work. So it was all about I should be succeeding, so let's just keep on going. But I wasn't seeing the signs and I was struggling on a bit too long or longer than that was necessary. People don't want to give things up as then they would have to face up to a loss, a loss of face or ego.

Dr Amanda Potter:

It's really very much about not wanting to admit at that point that you've lost the previous time, the previous investment of money, energy, or emotion if it's a relationship as well. So it could be in relationships too. So people don't want to admit loss, they don't want to admit something has failed, they don't want to be wasteful. So if we think about food, and they care about saving face. So that one was particularly relevant for me in saying a product, I'm going to take that product off the market. I worried about what other people would think about me or my capability. And we worry about other people's opinions too much, I think. So that saving face and ego piece that you just mentioned, Christian, is actually very important with sunk cost. Worrying about what other people think. If I keep investing, they'll think it's all okay and they won't judge us for my actions.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that makes sense, particularly in a world where a lot of our businesses and marketing efforts are more noticeable, you know, through social media.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Everyone can see what everyone does. Those of us who are on social media, of course.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. So what should they do?

Dr Amanda Potter:

The sensible decision is to stop. Stop investing time, energy, money, emotions into relationships, whatever it is, and put your resources into something that is more promising. But the brain tells you that there is an emotional attachment to what you have been doing, and therefore it makes it really difficult to detach. But actually, that's the thing that we need to do.

SPEAKER_00:

So difficult but possible by the sense of it.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Absolutely. Recognizing, of course, is going to be absolutely key.

SPEAKER_00:

So this podcast, Amanda, is about the neuroscience of the sunk cost fallacy and why we submit to it.

Dr Amanda Potter:

It is, and it's that emotional attachment piece that I just referred to that really drives us to commit to previous decisions rather than to make new, different decisions. And the neuroscience is really interesting. And I think to do a deep dive into the neural complexities of why our brains lie to us and tell us to stick with something that's sinking than to abandon it and to go for something that isn't, that's growing, is just really fascinating.

SPEAKER_00:

So, what are the main areas then of the brain that we're talking about here?

Dr Amanda Potter:

There's three main regions of the brain that are responsible for decision-making and have an impact on the sunk cost bias. They are the prefrontal cortex, which we've heard about many times, which is known as the CEO of the brain or the decision-making element of the brain, the nucleus accumbens, and also the anterior insula. But we should maybe go through each of them in turn.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's do the first one then, the PFC, the prefrontal cortex.

Dr Amanda Potter:

This one's responsible for higher order cognitive functions and the foundation of great decision-making. And within the prefrontal cortex, there is the orbitofrontal cortex, the OFC, and that's nestled right in the middle of the prefrontal cortex. And that helps with the assessing of anticipated rewards and punishments associated with choices, which we know, of course, dopamine has a relationship with as well. What it means is that the OFC, as I'm going to call it, it has a role in decision-making because it looks at past investments, past energy, investments, relationships, and the looking at those investments influences the choice of whether to persevere or to stop with that investment.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's how it relates to sunk cost, even that area of the brain that's fascinating.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And if you think about emotions, therefore, because we know that with the relationship between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex and the strengthening and weakening of both of those areas, which we've talked about in previous podcasts, that's going to have an impact too.

SPEAKER_00:

So when we're stressed and we're experiencing prolonged stress, then we know that the prefrontal cortex diminishes and gets weaker, and therefore we're less rational. So I suppose by implication, we're less able to recognize the need to detach emotionally from past investments, despite the evidence suggesting that these investments are no longer useful, rational, or beneficial.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think that's brilliantly summarized because prefrontal cortex, when we are in a position where we are healthy functioning, we've had good sleep and everything, what happens is the prefrontal cortex is going to be functioning well and the orbital frontal cortex is going to be rational and focusing well. But if those things are diminished because we're stressed and anxious, then what's going to happen is we're going to have a bias. There's going to be a skew and there is a risk that we overly emphasize the importance of past investments and don't balance the importance of future and new investments.

SPEAKER_00:

So what about the nucleus accumbens?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Nucleus accumbens is a deeply embedded part of the brain which looks after the reward system. And when we anticipate reward, the nucleus accumbens releases dopamine. What it does is it creates a sense of emotional attachment to that anticipated positive outcome. So if we think about sunk cost, if we think about a project that in the past worked, or a TV series in the past that was interesting, or a cake that last time you ate it, it was delicious, then what happens is the nucleus accumbens will release dopamine and will create a sense of emotional attachment to that memory. And that will motivate you to want to do it again. And it will create that emotional bind with the investment of that food or money or TV series. So we lose the sense of logic and we proceed because of the reinforcement of dopamine, but our brains are tricking us and lying to us because it's remembering something that was good, but not accounting for the fact that the situation has changed.

SPEAKER_00:

We know that dopamine is the motivation and reward neurotransmitter, so it encourages us towards an action or behavior.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And not necessarily the right one in this situation.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. What about the third part then that you mentioned, uh, Amanda, the anterior insula, is that right?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So if you were to stop investing in Bitcoin, Christian, what will happen is the anterior insula recognizes this as a distress, and there's almost an emotional pain associated with leaving a project or stopping investment in that Bitcoin. So you feel an emotional conflict, an emotional pain that results in a reluctance to let go. So the anterior insula is dedicated to monitoring the physiological responses to external emotional stimuli, particularly when there's heightened emotions. So in your situation with Bitcoin, you know, the fact you were doing all that research, what was happening is there was an emotional conflict, and the anterior insula was scanning and recognizing that conflict and trying to remove the pain.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and if it had to have just given it up or stopped, then um, yeah, I would have got FOMO. Yeah, now we know the neuroscience behind FOMO, don't we?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yeah, maybe that's a podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's more likely when emotions are very high, is that right?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Absolutely. You know, we keep talking about the positive-negative affect, the role of the amygdala, the role of the prefrontal cortex. When emotions are high or we are prone to negative affect, we are less likely to be rational. And that emotional attachment prior to investments can lead us to making poor choices because of the dopamine motivation reward connection.

SPEAKER_00:

I imagine this may be part of the reason people who are addicted to things stay in a negative cycle, then in some ways. They've very strong previous emotional attachments to the things that they're addicted to. So, and it's also about identity, isn't it?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Oh gosh, it's really reminded me something which is around addiction. The Huberman Lab, which is just a brilliant podcast, of course. I loved the dopamine episode, which I can't remember which number it was, but it was quite early in his publication of his podcast. And what I loved about that episode is the point that the first time you eat a cake, I'm going to use percentages, you get 100% dopamine because you love the cake. The next time you eat the cake, your brain will only release 97% dopamine. So there's 3% pain. The missing amount is experienced as an emotional pain. And the same with cocaine, same with any drug, anything that's pleasure-inducing, sugar, and all of these have different amounts of dopamine that they release. I'm just using 100% as an example. But every time you take it again, it releases a smaller amount of dopamine relatively, to the point that by the time I've eaten my 50th miles bar in a row, my dopamine levels are going to be much, much lower than the first. But the pain I receive in trying to find that hit will be more significant than the pleasure. So it really relates to this whole point around investments too, because people tend to escalate their commitment to something when emotional involvement is high, but also there has been pleasure. They're going out to try and re find that pleasure and create that sense of joy again. But it's much, much harder to find the second time.

SPEAKER_00:

Remember reading Matthew Perry from Friends' autobiography. He talks a lot about the challenge of trying to kind of get that same level of satisfaction and joy and happiness, and just finding that uh the things that he's addicted to just not doing that anymore. His life just really being about the addiction, trying to make you know, make him feel satisfied and happy, but um, yeah, just always having that gap there, never really being quite satisfied or happy. So yeah, really fascinating, but quite sad as well at the same time.

Dr Amanda Potter:

He was incredible and how he turned his life around to try and help others before he Yeah, definitely, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I'd love to hear what you think of the book once you finished. I may buy it.

SPEAKER_00:

We've talked a little bit about the neuropsychology angle. What about the psychological factors here? I know you mentioned cognitive dissonance before.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Yep, cognitive dissonance is one of the things I wanted to talk about because it is a major reason for sunk cost. Because when a person holds two contradictory beliefs, which is basically cognitive dissonance, what happens is you get a sense of emotional discomfort from having that cognitive conflict. And the question will often be, do I continue or do I quit? When we have cognitive dissonance, the brain will tell us to continue, don't quit. As a result, we stick with something rather than having the emotional pain of stopping. Because to continue means that we have consistency and it means we avoid the pain.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's easier for that person to continue with the current behaviour, as it's also what they've gotten used to, easier in some ways, more comfortable. And quitting or letting go of something is, I imagine, very stressful as it confirms that they've got something wrong.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Absolutely. I think it takes courage to quit. It takes courage to say this isn't working. Another psychological perspective is around dwelling. So some people are prone to dwelling on past events and tend to have their focus and their attention and their storytelling very much about the past. They love reliving past events because every time they tell the story, I've got a wonderful friend who always, every time I see him and we see friends, he tells the same story. Everybody has heard the story and everyone goes along with that story because it's part of who he is. So he will release dopamine every time he tells that story, which is lovely. And all of us enjoy the fact that he's someone who enjoys that moment again and again. But in a sunk cost perspective, what happens is people who focus on the past have a really tough time moving on and doing something different, and they are more likely to fall into that sunk cost trap.

SPEAKER_00:

So there are pros and cons of even savouring, so looking back over the past and savouring and thinking of the positives and happy memories. So you're getting the dopamine that we know that's good for your well-being, but at the same time, when you as you've mentioned, it can also sometimes link to that sunk cost fallacy as well and hold us back potentially.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Are there any other psychological factors that are involved in the sunk cost fallacy, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter:

The ego is the last one. The ego and how we f see our self-image and our self-esteem is really important in terms of sunk cost. I can see that in myself, that I can sometimes be responsible for ego-driven decision making because I don't want people to see me negatively, and I don't want to be portrayed in a negative way. So that might influence my decision making, how other people see me, or whether people see me to be successful or not, or what my parents think of me, even, which is just crazy considering my age. And so that will impact my decision making. That's a really, really embedded one.

SPEAKER_00:

So when ego is involved, we want to protect our self image and we're more likely to fall into the bias. Of sunk cost, right? So we don't look like we've failed.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Absolutely. I don't want anyone to think that I'm a failure. So therefore, I will make decisions or do things to help me appear successful. I can't think of a single example, of course, now that I'm talking about it, but I know that I do at times want to avoid failure or yeah, I'm not someone who's been very good at negative feedback in the past or admitting to mistakes. I always try and look at the positive side of things.

SPEAKER_00:

The drive away from or the motivation to avoid failure or pain, is that stronger than the drive towards pleasure? Is there research there?

Dr Amanda Potter:

I don't know actually. I think for some people, because of the dopamine, they are very much driven towards pleasure. And for other people, depending on their positive and negative affect, are very much motivated to avoid risk, to avoid failure. For me, I'm probably I'm motivated by both. I'm very much about avoiding risk and avoiding failure. But I do also like cake. So there we are.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think yeah, it makes sense that you'd be wanting to be balanced, wouldn't you? So to have a to drive towards pleasure and success, but also to be slightly risk averse as well, or yeah, to to avoid things not turning out well, to have a balance there.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Why is this then? So from a neuroscience perspective, what's going on in the brain here?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So it's back to the prefrontal cortex, but actually it's the medial prefrontal cortex, which is intrinsically linked with self-image and self-identity. And it's my medial prefrontal cortex that has a role in my ego-related decision making, because it's that part of the brain that confronts decision making that might impact self-image or self-esteem. So if the medial prefrontal cortex feels that there's any threat, it will jump into action. So admitting failure or admitting poor judgment due to some cost is endangering your self-image. It will impact self-esteem and therefore will activate that part of the brain and it will recommend emotionally to avoid the threat.

SPEAKER_00:

And how does that link to the amygdala, the emotion center?

Dr Amanda Potter:

The emotion center, the amygdala, of course, plays a vital role in these situations. And again, when confronted with ego-threatening decisions, such as admitting to failure, linked to sunken costs, the amygdala will create an emotional response. It will send messages to the adrenal gland to release cortisol, the stress hormone, will release adrenaline, or in the US, we'll think of it as an epinephrine. And that will help us with the fight or flight and preparing for difficulty. But actually, what it means is that we start to become, unless we are managing that stress response, we are less rational and we are diminishing the role of the prefrontal cortex.

SPEAKER_00:

When you started mentioning ego preservation and avoiding looking stupid or making mistakes, for example, then it immediately made me think of psychological safety and how there is a connection there. So by confronting sort of ego-threatening decisions and not making decisions completely related to preserving our ego, then that will also be a good thing for psychological safety, right?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Absolutely. And if we stick with past decisions and don't challenge and don't ask questions, we're at risk of creating functionally stupid environments, of course. Sunk cost is really linked to psych safety and functional stupidity. So if we are prone to sunk cost and stick with past decisions, we're going to create environments that are not flexible, that are potentially at risk of being functionally stupid, and that would absolutely, to your point, undermine psych safety.

SPEAKER_00:

Really, really interesting. So our brains lie to us and tell us the wrong thing, basically. And if that's the case, how do you overcome the sunk cost fallacy?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So because of those three functions, particularly in the brain, which we've talked about, the orbital frontal cortex, which is part of the prefrontal cortex, the nucleus accumbens, and the anterior insula. From a neuroscience perspective, our brains are telling us to stick, to not change, just to continue. So from a psychological perspective, we have to actively be aware of it. So we have to recognize that's the first step. We have to recognize the implications of sunk cost and recognize that something needs to change. And from a business perspective, we need to realize that throwing good money after bad isn't working, or throwing good time after bad is not working in a relationship. Anything we need to just firstly recognize.

SPEAKER_00:

Makes sense. Anything else?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Well, I think the other ones I wanted to just point out were about being mindful. So the more mindful we are, we are more likely to understand and to admit the sunk cost. So being mindful. The next one is learning. So learning from past mistakes, realizing that it's a lesson that is crucial. And the last one is acting on it. So do something. Do something different. Don't just avoid, stick your head in the sand, but actually let go of those experiences. Don't dwell on the past and actually move on from the past towards something that is more constructive, more positive, and is going to create better successes. So take action is the real message.

SPEAKER_00:

Would it be fair to say that having a more of a focus on future possibilities might be another potential solution or helpful?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Very helpful. So not dwelling, thinking about the future, thinking about opportunities and possibilities, and just challenging yourself and recognizing that actually you're not necessarily making a good decision just because of the pain it's creating and also because of the dopamine response you were getting, that you're thinking, oh, but it might, it might. But actually be courageous, be brave, be bold, and just say enough's enough.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, Amanda. I loved our conversation today. That now draws us to the end of this podcast. I wanted to say also thank you to our colleague Keshaya for all of her hard work researching this topic as well.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Thank you, Keshaya. Thank you, Christian, for being the host.

SPEAKER_00:

My pleasure. And if you've enjoyed this episode, if you could share with just one person you might think might be interested in listening, then we'd also really appreciate that.

Dr Amanda Potter:

That would be great. And I would love you to think about one thing where you have been prone to the sunk cross bias. What was the decision that you were avoiding making because you'd invested so much time, emotional commitment, energy? And what could have been different if you had said enough's enough earlier on?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a fabulous question, Amanda. Thank you very much, everybody, for listening, and uh we'll see you soon.

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Dr Amanda Potter

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Tim Hepworth

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Caitlin Cooper

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