Ep36 Finding Happiness

Happiness - We are all trying to find it or work for it, yet it is something quite intangible and difficult to define, and it can mean something completely different for two different people. In this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer. Amanda is being interviewed by our new podcast host Kristian and we explore the topic of Happiness: what it is, what does science say about it, and what can we do to be closer to feeling happy?

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Timestamps

Finding Happiness

·       00:00 – Finding Happiness

·       00:43 – Welcome aboard Kristian

·       01:28 – The Pursuit of Happiness

·       03:06 – Retrospectively… Happiness was a lucky chance

·       04:14 – What is my purpose?

·       05:41 – Don’t try too hard

Red skies are gonna clear up, put on a happy face!

·       07:14 – I can’t help but think that there’s a connection here

·       08:00 – Strengths & Values revisited

·       09:10 – You must believe!

·       09:45 – Well, the UN’s gotta do something…

·       10:53 – You’re beginning to arouse my, curiosity.

·       11:39 – You’re the best, around!

·       12:32 – You gotta be better

·       13:04 – Hyper & Hypoarousal

·       15:17 – He’s a changed man

·       16:36 – Neuroscience!

·       17:35 – You a lorry driver or something?

A State of Mind

·       18:18 – Happiness States

·       19:53 – Satisfiers & Maximisers

·       21:52 – Deeper, Deeper… Way Down.

·       22:18 – Too much of a good thing in bad times

·       24:36 – Not all sunshine and smiles

·       26:08 – Rage Applying

·       27:15 – From Rage Applying, to applying the breaks

·       28:34 – We’re all on the same page

·       30:22 – What do YOU want?

·       31:23 – The missing link

I’m happy I’m home.

·       32:23 – Finding your happy place

·       33:47 – The light; it burns!

·       34:29 – Every night I’ve been huggin’ my pillow

·       35:35 – Social Connection

·       36:42 – You have a choice…

·       37:53 – Recap

·       38:43 – Just a couple more…

·       39:39 – Distractions; they are all around me!

·       41:11 – In Summary

·       41:33 – The end.

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

To follow Zircon on LinkedIn and to be first to hear about podcasts, publications and news, please like and follow us: https://www.linkedin.com/company/betalent-by-zircon/

To access the research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://www.betalent.com/research

For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform please contact: Hello@BeTalent.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

Happiness. We're all trying to find it or work for it, yet it's something quite intangible and difficult to define, and it can mean something completely different for two different people. In this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer, we explore the topic of happiness. What is it? What does science say about it? What we can do to be closer to feeling happy. Welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr. Amanda Potter, chartered psychologist and CEO of Zircon. I'm Christian Lise Bell. Hello, everybody.

Dr Amanda Potter: 0:33

Hi, Christian. Thank you very much for being the host today. How fabulous that you're stepping in for Angela. And how are you feeling recording your very first podcasts on the CPO with me?

SPEAKER_00: 0:44

Yeah, thanks, Amanda. Um, yeah, really excited to be finally involved in the podcast. Um, I love listening to podcasts, especially this one, but never thought I'd actually be playing the part of co-host with you. So uh this is really exciting. Um, Angela's been doing a really great job as well, so I hope I can do the same.

Dr Amanda Potter: 1:00

She has, hasn't she? And I just want to send my love to Angela, who has been a wonderful co-host with Tim. And Angela is currently on maternity leave, having just had her first child, a little girl, and we all send her huge amounts of love. And I can't wait to go over and give the baby a squeeze. So very exciting.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18

So today we're going to talk about happiness, that elusive topic. It's something that most of us want to feel most of the time. How would you define happiness, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter: 1:27

Happiness is a topic that most of us want to talk about and want to think about because, like you say, it's something that all of us would like to feel, and there are different ways we can look at happiness. So we can look at it from a philosophical, a psychological, or a neuroscientific way. And so, what I'd like to do is take you through all three, if that's okay, Christian.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Brilliant.

Dr Amanda Potter: 1:48

So let's look at philosophy. The philosophical perspective on happiness really started all the way back from ancient Greece, and it has been taken forward to the more contemporary philosophers. And very much when the philosophers are talking about happiness, they're very much talking about meaning and purpose and ethics. And so, to what extent does purpose and does ethics really help us to find a mental state of happiness? Whereas psychology, it's very much about emotional well-being, so it's very much about the current feelings we have. So it could be about joy or pleasure or hedonia, or it could be about quality of life, having a really good, meaningful quality of life. So you can see that there's a link there between psychology and philosophy. And finally, the neuroscience. The neuroscience focuses much more on the positive and negative affect, the experience of pleasure, as a result of the neurotransmitters, neuromodulators, the hormones and the chemicals that we release in the brain and the transmission and release and acceptance of those hormones, etc. How do we feel? What is the experience that we have? And then how do we interpret that feeling? Is it happiness that we interpret it as? Is it joy? Is it pleasure?

SPEAKER_00: 3:05

That's really fascinating, actually. Um, I'm wondering, has the definition of happiness changed, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter: 3:11

I think it has. Looking at our research over time, happiness was frequently defined in the past as luck or having the right external conditions that enable us to feel happy. So almost our happiness was a result of what was happening in the external environment. And if we think about external locus of control as a concept, it's almost like our happiness with those old definitions was dependent on having the right environment, having enough money, having the right family members rather than it coming from inside, which is much more of our modern Western understanding, which is about internal feelings or affect. And so therefore is much more moving towards the psychology and neuroscience perspective of happiness.

SPEAKER_00: 3:54

And that's interesting because when I was looking at the research myself, um I noticed that most of the definitions in the beginning were concerned with meaning and purpose.

Dr Amanda Potter: 4:03

And that really fits with the world of positive psychology. Um, science of happiness is part of positive psychology. It has its roots, as does strengths, in the world of positive psychology. And if we think about it, when the origins of positive psychology really started, it was very much pointing to meaning and purpose being key. And that if we have meaning and purpose, we have better physical or mental health, we're more likely to be resilient, we're more likely to have better cognitive functioning, actually, it slows down aging. That's amazing. And of course, we are more likely to be happy. So happiness actually is not a simple concept and actually is impacted and it impacts a number of different life events and activities.

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

Would you say actually that purpose is something that you absolutely need to be happy now?

Dr Amanda Potter: 4:53

It is pretty foundational or fundamental, and I think our purpose changes throughout our life. Different things become important to us as we go through our life stages. I'm in my 50s now, and I'm definitely thinking about different things being important to me than 10 or even 20 years ago. But I definitely agree that having purpose is quite important to feeling happy, from a personal perspective at least.

SPEAKER_00: 5:17

Yeah, and for for me too, for me, purpose is around almost like the compass and the direction that I can use to energize what I'm doing and to sort of give me a real direction.

Dr Amanda Potter: 5:26

Yeah, and you strike me as someone who's got real clarity about the things that you really love and enjoy, Christian, both inside work and outside of work.

SPEAKER_00: 5:35

Yeah, I think that would be fair to say. I think that's something though that I've I've developed over time. I'm also wondering, Amanda, actually, can we have too much purpose? Can it have a negative relationship with happiness, for example?

Dr Amanda Potter: 5:47

Well, I think you're right. If we try too hard, then very often we can get stressed or worried or anxious that we're not either contributing enough or we're not having enough meaning in our life or we don't have enough purpose. And that can result in something called purpose anxiety, which has a negative impact on our level of well-being, our mental health, and fundamentally our happiness. Therefore, if our purpose is only to chase happiness and we feel unfulfilled and we're always switching jobs or looking for a new partner or thinking the grass is greener, then we're going to spend our whole lives searching for something that doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_00: 6:23

Yeah, that's been my experience as well about you know happiness being sometimes quite elusive. And I've always thought it's actually a really interesting topic because from personal experience, if I try too hard to find it, to find that happiness, um, it seems to just move further away from me. If I embrace each part of my day and kind of live for the moment, I'm more likely to have a moment of joy. In other words, if we chase happiness, as you say, and purpose too much, um, we end up feeling less happy. I'm constantly looking for something better.

Dr Amanda Potter: 6:52

That's so wise, Christian. I completely agree. And I can really say that's true for me too. I'm much better than I used to be. I was horrible at this, but I'm actually starting to live each day and enjoy each moment, which is fabulous.

SPEAKER_00: 7:06

Yeah, and that's fabulous. That's why you hired me for um a zircon, Amanda.

Dr Amanda Potter: 7:10

It is, it is.

SPEAKER_00: 7:13

How can you understand uh then what does and doesn't make you happy?

Dr Amanda Potter: 7:18

Well, let's think about it from either that psychological, neuroscientific, or philosophical approach. I personally like the neuroscience approach, as I said, and thinking about positive affect. And so it's that experience of happiness and the question of what brings me joy, what enables the release of dopamine, of serotonin that makes me feel good, and therefore I interpret that emotion as happiness. What environments are actually going to help me release those right neurotransmitters that help me feel happy?

SPEAKER_00: 7:47

When I think about joy, um, I connect this to I suppose activities that I'm good at. I'm usually using my strengths amanda and kind of um in the moment or in the zone, as we say. Are strengths relevant here?

Dr Amanda Potter: 7:59

They're completely relevant because we know from our research that if we get the opportunity to identify and use our strengths, we're going to have better well-being, we're going to be more engaged, more productive. But fundamentally, we're going to enjoy our lives more because we're doing the things that we enjoy. It makes total sense, doesn't it? And as does many aspects of psychology, actually. And there is some great evidence actually to show that a strengths-based approach combined with purpose results in greater levels of emotional well-being and happiness at work.

SPEAKER_00: 8:30

Fantastic. And what about values? How do our values uh link to our purpose and our happiness?

Dr Amanda Potter: 8:36

It's interesting because I've been talking about values as we know, because we've published podcasts on culture fit and culture agility, and I've been talking about strengths for over a decade now. And I always separated strengths and values because values are about the things that are important to you, and strengths are the things that energize you. But actually, sometimes they overlap. You know, sometimes the things that are important to us are also the things that we enjoy. And I think it's when we have that overlap that we get that sense of congruence, that we get that sense of purpose and fulfillment.

SPEAKER_00: 9:08

I'm also wondering um, how does happiness link to something like belief?

Dr Amanda Potter: 9:12

It depends what our beliefs are. But if our belief is something like generosity or altruism or giving back or making a difference, if we can work for an organization that has the same values, the same approach, then that's going to just be fantastic. So for me, I think it is that alignment about what is important to you, what are your values, what are your beliefs, what's the purpose of the organization that you're working with? If there's true alignment, then there will be a real sense of congruence and a sense of fit.

SPEAKER_00: 9:42

An interesting point, leading me on to an article actually I read in preparation for the podcast, um the UN Happiness Report. And I read that there are six measures that cut across all cultures.

Dr Amanda Potter: 9:53

It's interesting because they use the six measures you're referring to are income, healthy life expectancy, social support, generosity, freedom, and trust. And they're the predictors of happiness. And what was really interesting looking at that report as well is that Finland for five years in a row was number one. The reasons for that was very much about the well-functioning democracy that they have, the sense of freedom in around the country, the trust in the police, the good healthcare system. And they were one of the first countries to push the flat working model and agile working. And so actually, it goes to show the way the country is run and the way that the healthcare is run and that we interact with the police force, for example, has a significant impact on our sense of well-being, our sense of happiness.

SPEAKER_00: 10:41

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it, how happiness is impacted by those various social and political factors and enables greater happiness across society?

Dr Amanda Potter: 10:50

It really does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 10:52

And given the influence and impact things like society and politics have, um, how does this influence our emotions? And would this mean that it affects our levels of happiness, for example?

Dr Amanda Potter: 11:02

Well, happiness does relate to how we are coping. Because if you think about our emotional experience and positive affect, it really depends on our state of arousal. So if we think about the levels of emotional arousal for a minute, if we think about thriving, striving, surviving, struggling, and crisis, actually our level of happiness will depend on that level of emotional arousal, which is our ability to cope and how we are dealing with that information. I think it's pretty fundamental.

SPEAKER_00: 11:30

I've actually never heard of um that phrase. I mean, can you take me through the striving, thriving, surviving, struggling, and crisis?

Dr Amanda Potter: 11:37

Yep, sure. So Maria Pavier highlighted this, and I had heard it before, but she, when she did the ABP conference and she was the keynote, she talked about these concepts. So it's really good to bring them out today. Let's start at the positive end of the scale, which is thriving. Thriving is when you are operating at your best, you're using your strengths, you have total confidence in yourself and others. And whilst you might have some normal fluctuations in mood, really your behavior is ethical, it's moral, you're purpose-led, and all the things that we've been talking about today, Christian. That's where we want to be. That's the great place to be. And funnily enough, I was talking to a coaching client who's literally managed to move himself into a thriving state as a result of some of the decisions he's been making over the last four months working together. And particularly because he was in the bottom one, he was crisis when I started working with him. The next one below is striving. Striving is when we have to work at it, we have to be a bit more targeted and focused. And it isn't that sense of completely having belief. We question ourselves a bit more, and so therefore, we have to actively seek the environments, the people, in order to feel like we are thriving. We're working towards that thriving state. The next ones aren't quite so positive. So I'd say striving and thriving are quite positive, but surviving, struggling, and crisis are less so. So we're going into this sense of hyper-arousal with surviving. So hyper-arousal is when we are starting to experience the fight or flight response. So we are being hyper-alert to the environment and to the situation, and we may have a tendency to be a bit irritable, a bit nervous, a bit overwhelmed, and we may be taking on too much, and we stop being quite so rational. We don't make such good judgment, which of course is going to start impacting our happiness.

SPEAKER_00: 13:24

I love the way that you've outlined these. Um, but can you tell us, Amanda, what we mean by hyper and hypoarousal?

Dr Amanda Potter: 13:30

So, hyper-arousal, which is also known as fight or flight response, is often characterized by being hyper-vigilant, hyper-aware, and experiencing feelings of anxiety or panic or having racing thoughts. But hypoarousal, which we're going to come to with crisis, is very much a freeze response where you get this sense of emotional numbness or emptiness and paralysis. If you get too much hypoarousal with an O, you can potentially experience burnout. Just to summarize what we've just said, there's thriving, which is good, striving, which is really good, but moving towards thriving, surviving, which is hyper-arousal, irritability, struggling, which is also hyper-arousal, but it's more pervasive. It means that it's difficult to concentrate, difficult to focus, and it's starting to really impact both your personal and professional life, and may mean you end up procrastinating, not committing to decisions, avoiding topical or critical issues. But the real one, the real issue is that crisis, which is hypo-arousal, which is the emotional numbness, emptiness, and paralysis that we just talked about. So I think they're really good to have in mind. And because I've seen a client very recently literally shift himself from crisis to thriving over a four-month period, he basically turned down a very complex role that didn't suit him, working with some very challenging people who were a real trigger for him. And now he's working back in the job that he was in previously, very successfully. He's feeling like he's making a difference. He feels like he's truly his confidence has come back, he's operating at his best. He might still have normal fluctuations in mood, but he's just a literally a different man to see. And he looks different, which is crazy. It's amazing. He radiates confidence now rather than radiates doubt.

SPEAKER_00: 15:17

So as a result of your coaching, it appears that he's really sort of realigned his purpose and he's using his strengths and he's in the right place and therefore so much more energized and happy as a result.

Dr Amanda Potter: 15:28

And he was incredibly brave. We talked about it, and he said it wasn't a difficult decision, but he basically took himself down a rung in the organization. So he demoted himself and went back to the position he was in previously. And I asked him what it was like making that decision after the fact, and he said it really wasn't hard. He was so much in crisis, it had something significant had to change. And I asked him if he was worried about how other people would see him and perceive him, and that wasn't even a worry either, because it was so truly the right decision and the right thing to do for him.

SPEAKER_00: 15:59

So, how do these things, the hyper and hyper-arouser, for example, relate back to happiness?

Dr Amanda Potter: 16:05

Well, that's a really good question. This whole podcast is about happiness, and there I am talking about arousal, hyper-arousal, surviving, striving, and so on. But actually, it has a massive impact on our happiness because the more we're able to do the things that we love and be able to have confidence and operate at our best and be in that thriving state, the more likely we are to experience joy, to experience happiness. If we're in crisis, if we're struggling, or if we're surviving, that experience of happiness is going to be much more fleeting.

SPEAKER_00: 16:35

That's fascinating. And you've touched on sort of the neuroscience angle. And I'm wondering what happens from this neuroscience perspective when people are happy.

Dr Amanda Potter: 16:44

We often talk about the neurotransmitters and the hormones that get released, and the one we most often refer to is dopamine, which of course is Tim's favourite. And that's the one that is the most frequently associated with positive emotions. The release of dopamine we know isn't particularly sticky. In other words, we release it quite simply and easily, which is the motivational reward chemical. It does help us to feel good, but it doesn't stay around for very long. So we have to keep finding ways to release little elements of dopamine. The one that is much more sticky is serotonin. And serotonin comes from those relationships and social bonds, like oxytocin too. And so serotonin and oxytocin are much stickier and they are longer lasting in helping us having a longer level of that feeling of happiness.

SPEAKER_00: 17:35

I've heard about dopamine and I think about walking through the supermarket and just having the idea, the vision of a Yorkie bar in my mind, my massive chocolate. More around sort of that dopamine and that anticipation of enjoying uh and unwrapping the chocolate bar and then eating it. Is that sort of about dopamine?

Dr Amanda Potter: 17:53

That is, that is. Do you really do that? Do you really walk around a supermarket?

SPEAKER_00: 17:58

I really do, yeah. I fap around.

Dr Amanda Potter: 18:00

Can you buy one?

SPEAKER_00: 18:01

99.9% of the time I buy one, yeah.

Dr Amanda Potter: 18:04

And is it always a Yorkie?

SPEAKER_00: 18:06

I relent. Um, I I mix it up, but um, I was probably thinking of Yorkie um, you know, on this podcast for some weird reasons. But no, I I can I can do various different chocolate bars. So when we speak of these individual concepts in other episodes, we always categorize them as a trait or a state. So I'm wondering, is happiness a trait or an emotion?

Dr Amanda Potter: 18:29

So that's a great question. Is happiness a trait or a state? And very much happiness in my mind is a state, not a trait. And that's because it's not sustainable. We're not built to be consistently happy. It's not a preference or a way of behaving or performing, but actually it's an emotion. And our happiness changes daily, rapidly, hourly, depending on what's happening in our lives. So even if you pursued happiness, which might result in that anxiety we talked about earlier, is certainly not sustainable.

SPEAKER_00: 19:00

And is there any research backing this up, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter: 19:03

There is. If you look at the meta-analysis of longitudinal studies of happiness, the research very much says that happiness can be stable in the short term, but not the long term, because there's the lack of temporal stability. It is impacted by those external factors that we heard in the psychological definition of happiness. And actually, there is a genetic basis for happiness for some, in that some people are more predisposed for the release of those neurotransmitters and chemicals than others. Some of us have to work quite hard to release them, others they're more readily accessible. So there's not a case that you are a happy person or you're a sad person, but actually, all of those other factors seem to have quite a significant impact on our state, our emotions, and our experience of happiness.

SPEAKER_00: 19:52

So this makes me think actually of individual biases actually in doing some preparation for the podcast. Um I read about Herbert Simon, the Nobel Prize winner 1978. It talked about the role of bias in happiness. You talked about the difference between people who are satisfied with what they have versus people who sacrifice today for the continual search for improvements, always thinking about how they can be better.

Dr Amanda Potter: 20:17

That sounds amazing. So can you tell me more? What's that about?

SPEAKER_00: 20:21

Yeah, I'll do my best. Um, people who are what he called satisficers make the most of a job rather than continually feeling unhappy and looking for the next opportunity. Whereas maximizers will always look for the next or better role, kind of fantasize for the next opportunity or life or partner, and the satisficers are happy with their choice and what they have in life. Maximizers are never happy. Um they want more and more and more, and satisfies are happy with second best sometimes, and they can make the best of the best of it. I want to be a satisficer. Um, what about you, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter: 20:54

Oh my goodness, I've spent my life being a maximizer, always wanting more, always striving to be a better version of myself, always thinking I can improve. But I think that's changing actually. I think now I've mentioned that I'm in my 50s twice today. I think it's clearly something on my mind. But actually, I'm much more content and happy with my lot. And yeah, I think I'm probably quite proud of what I've achieved too. So I'm all good.

SPEAKER_00: 21:22

I think I'm pretty much the same actually, Amanda. Um I'm always trying to get better with age in terms of being a bit more patient with myself and not constantly having to look for better and for more. Um, for me, I find that I'm nowadays more patient and a bit more self-compassionate as well. It's a work in progress, but I'm getting better with age too.

Dr Amanda Potter: 21:40

Self-compassion, that's definitely a topic for the future. That's one I'd like us to put on the list, Christian, because I think I have struggled for many years with self-compassion. I've recently, with a very good friend of mine, just experienced some hypnotherapy in London and Harley Street in order to have a bit more self-compassion. So that would be a wonderful topic for us to focus on in the future.

SPEAKER_00: 22:04

So, what stops us from being happy, do you think?

Dr Amanda Potter: 22:07

Well, I don't know if I give myself the permission to be happy sometimes. And I often worry that if I'm too happy, well, other people get annoyed with me. Do you remember during that COVID period, Christian, if anybody put on social media that they were enjoying the downtime or the time with their family or they were appreciating the dog walks, or that they were in any way happy during that time of crisis, during the pandemic, there was such an outpouring of hate from people who were just horrified that anybody could find a sense of happiness during the disaster. We all had to go around with big clouds over our heads. And it just makes me wonder sometimes if we appear too happy, we can be a bit annoying. And so as a result, I think sometimes we tone down our external perspective or our external impression of being happy because we don't want to be smug, but I don't want to feel smug, I don't want to appear smug in any way.

SPEAKER_00: 23:06

Yeah, I noticed that on social media as well. I have to say, I might have stopped myself on occasion from maybe sharing some good news when we are in that the midst of uh a lot of bad news as well. So I I definitely share your perception of maybe the the guilt that sometimes um people might have felt um by sharing really good news during that period. Of course, it was a period where it went on for quite a long time, wasn't it? So it's unrealistic to for your emotions to be flat and exactly the same.

Dr Amanda Potter: 23:34

So yeah, and I don't think I answer your question, to be honest, Christian. So, in terms of what stops us from being happy, if you think about the three definitions from the philosophical, the psychological, and the neuroscientific, actually we could either look at the external or the intrinsic self. So are we putting the blame on the external factors, our environment, our situation, finances, our family, the context that we're in, or are we putting it down to ourselves and the role that we play in helping us to be as happy as we can? And so I personally think what stops us from being happy predominantly is us. We are responsible for creating the lives that we can as much as possible to find happiness.

SPEAKER_00: 24:18

It seems, isn't it, to be more appropriate to show that you're struggling and things are tough sometimes than being too happy or too successful. I think we do have that bias of favouring humility and being the underdog.

Dr Amanda Potter: 24:30

Yeah, and because of that, we don't try to overly express our happiness, I think. It's a funny one.

SPEAKER_00: 24:36

Let's uh change tack a bit. Um I'm really interested in um some more of the research around happiness at work. And what does the research say um about creating happiness, happiness, happy teams, happy individuals in the workplace?

Dr Amanda Potter: 24:49

Attila did some brilliant research, she's so fab, and the research is pretty grim. Only one in ten employees in the UK are feeling enthusiastic about their job, and actually it's some of the worst data in Europe. So 9% of the UK versus 21% globally are actually enthusiastic about their job. And 41% of workers in the UK experience daily stresses, and particularly at the moment, there's a lack of confidence around our job market, which seems strange because actually it's incredibly buoyant from our perspective. We've got lots of things happening, and it's hard to recruit actually, rather than being hard for people to find jobs, particularly in the world of occupational psychology.

SPEAKER_00: 25:31

And this seems to be potentially a really challenging issue because people are coming into the workplace and it seems to me as if they're expecting more from their employer. Um they're expecting to be able to express that individual meaning and purpose and to be supported by their organizations to an extent. When I'm doing coaching or training, if people say I'm not happy in the workplace or in my team, in my experience, it seems to be a key trigger for people leaving organizations or teams. It results in things like quiet quitting or loud quitting, um, and a term I'd just learnt recently actually, uh rage applying.

Dr Amanda Potter: 26:10

I haven't heard of rage applying either, Christian. What is it?

SPEAKER_00: 26:13

Um, it's a really interesting one, actually. It's quite a new recent um sort of career trend. I'm starting on TikTok, and rage applying is around young people actually applying to lots of jobs, so sort of sending their CV to lots of other competing companies. And the reason they're doing it is that because they're maybe unhappy with their boss, they're really unhappy in their role. And I suppose the idea of rage applying is they're just applying to lots of jobs kind of to get back at that organization.

Dr Amanda Potter: 26:41

How interesting that they are applying to the competitors. That was the key thing that I just heard there, and also the rage, the anger part. So they're doing it just to hurt the organization. But interesting also that people leave people, not companies, and the line manager relationship, the toxic relationship with line managers is very often the reason why people leave.

SPEAKER_00: 27:02

I'm wondering, Amanda, is there anything we might look out for uh or we could do, organizations could do to prevent that burnout or they, for example, the rage applying for for to prevent that from happening in the first place?

Dr Amanda Potter: 27:15

That's so interesting, isn't it? So rage applying sounds like it's pre-burnout. Burnout's when people persist and they stick with the position and they stick with that toxic environment. From our previous research, you'll remember, Christian, that we found that there were three predictors of burnout. They were toxic relationship with a line manager, lack of purpose, and also too much complexity or too much volume, all fitting with what we've been talking about today with happiness. And so I think there's probably quite a negative relationship between burnout and happiness, quite obviously. But to answer your question, it makes me think again to the previous podcast guest, Maria Pavia, because she said that if you had a car and a light flashed up in it, you know, a warning light, you'd take the to the garage and you'd fix it. But when we see a team member struggling or demonstrating odd or erratic behavior, which of course is a sign of burnout, we often ignore it and see it to be their problem. So there's that issue of bystander apathy. So to answer your question, we need to do a huge amount more to stop the tide, stem the tide of burnout. And actually, one of the ways we could do that is to help people to be happier at work. But my question is, is it our responsibility to make people happy at work? Or is it for us to give people the tools and the techniques to help themselves to be happier?

SPEAKER_00: 28:33

That's the big question, isn't it? I personally think that it's as much as organizations have a responsibility for the well-being and the and the duty of care for their employees, particularly today where there's so much pressure, there's so much need to do more with less. We're living in you know a really challenging world at the moment. I don't think it's it's viable for organizations to have to take on that full responsibility. I think individuals need to take a responsibility for their own happiness as well and their well-being, and so that they can prevent burnout and you know stay healthy as well.

Dr Amanda Potter: 29:07

I agree. I think we're all individually accountable for our own happiness. Of course, that doesn't account for how we're treated at work and the way the culture is in that organization and the day-to-day experience. But if we start with our own activities, our own choices, our decisions, and the things that are important to us and our purpose, then we are going to hopefully create the right environment for us to create that sense of happiness and enjoyment in the moment each day.

SPEAKER_00: 29:37

And by taking care of ourselves and especially leaders taking care of themselves as well, that that provides really powerful role modelling, doesn't it? Which which spreads almost like emotional contagion, you know, through teams and organizations. Organizations are people, so it makes sense for us as individuals to be able to spread that, you know, cheer to our colleagues.

Dr Amanda Potter: 29:56

I completely see that with Sarah, Stew, Tim, and I as four directors. I mean, we genuinely love running this business. We trust each other immensely. We have real clarity and purpose in terms of what we're doing. And my three co-directors are great fun. I really enjoy their time outside of work as well as inside of work. You know, you're quite new to us, but I hope it creates quite a positive working environment because of that as a starting point.

SPEAKER_00: 30:21

It really does. I'm wondering what organizations then can actually do to support their employees to be happier. Obviously, they're not taking all of the responsibility, but what can they do to support their employees?

Dr Amanda Potter: 30:33

If we think about strengths and we think about leadership, there is a real role for leaders to be clear about what energizes their team, what motivates them, so what drives them, and what they want from their careers. And so, depending on their strengths, depending on their motivation, their needs, and also their purpose and drivers, then they should invest differently in each colleague in order to help that individual find that sense of purpose, meaning and ultimately happiness. And so I think we need to just spend more time asking questions and getting to know our people so that we can support them the best way we can.

SPEAKER_00: 31:10

When I was researching for the podcast, I was also wondering about the link between what at Zelcom we talk a lot about, psychological safety, and whether there's a link between psychological safety and happiness.

Dr Amanda Potter: 31:22

Well, we haven't tested it, but actually from the academic research, definitely looks at the link. And if we think about that hypo arousal, hyper-arousal fight or flight and freeze, and the point that when we feel psychologically unsafe, we're in that hyper or even worse, hypo state of arousal. Then of course, there is going to be an impact on our pervasive sense of happiness and our feelings of joy. If we're not feeling safe, we're unlikely to feel happy.

SPEAKER_00: 31:50

I suppose if we're not feeling safe, then more likely to withdraw or maybe to avoid learning and sort of sharing experiences, which could impact our happiness through maybe not reaching out and getting social support and having people sort of help bolster our well-being.

Dr Amanda Potter: 32:05

It really fits with the work that we've shown that resilient leaders create psychologically safe environments, and also that resilient leaders are more likely to make decisions and are less likely to create environments that are consensus-driven, which of course undermine psychologically safe environments as well.

SPEAKER_00: 32:23

So clearly, organisations and society as a whole can do more to remove some barriers to happiness and psychological safety, for example. Our listeners, Amanda, may be wondering though, how can we put ourselves in the best position to be as happy as we can be? Could you go through some of the key areas or things we could prioritize?

Dr Amanda Potter: 32:42

Yeah, that would be great. Because I have been alluding to the fact that I think that we are individually accountable for our own happiness and that we should really take the steps to the do the best we can to be as happy as we can. And for me, the first one is sleep. And for me, sleep is fundamental to my happiness.

SPEAKER_00: 33:01

I love sleep.

Dr Amanda Potter: 33:02

I love sleep. Eight hours. Oh my gosh. That would be lovely. Some of the things that we can do just to improve our sleep. And Andrew Huberman on his podcast, he's got a whole podcast on sleep, which is just genius, by the way. From that Huberman podcast, there were some brilliant tips that I just wanted to share, which is about preparing yourself to be awake and ready during the day and therefore be sleepy when it comes to nighttime. And one of the tips is as soon as you're awake in the morning, within one hour of waking, get outside. Avoid artificial light in the morning, just go outside, open the curtains, or look outside and get that fresh natural light as soon as you can. The other thing is to avoid artificial light at night because that suppresses the melatonin, which helps to get you to sleep. And also dim your lights at night a couple of hours before bedtime. So it's kind of mimicking that sunset period. And also, if it is a sunset, look outside so that the light goes into the eyes, the change of light goes into the eyes, because this triggers the brain to know it's the end of the day and will help with the melatonin release, which will help you to feel sleepy. And so for me, sleep is pretty key. And actually, as Joe Wick said in podcast 21, that if he has his sleep, his food, and his exercise right, he's a much better person and in a much better mood. That's the same for me.

SPEAKER_00: 34:28

Yeah, and I can see that too. I've I've I've heard of something like sleep as being a key leverage or a sort of a pivot for um helping other areas. So for example, you know, your point about being sleep being really important to you, um, I can really connect with if I haven't slept very well, then I tend to eat, you know, less healthily. I'll tend to my mood will be a little bit lower. So I find that as well as movement and obviously good nutrition, for me personally, that sleep is probably the most important factor for me in sort of leveraging obese, making it a lot easier to engage in those other behaviours. So it's almost like a ripple effect.

Dr Amanda Potter: 35:08

Pretty core, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:10

I know that um during lockdown and and even post-lockdown as well, there's one of the main challenges to people's happiness and well-being in the research has been social connection. And so we've seen some associated problems when people aren't connected or with withdrawn because they haven't had those opportunities to meet like they did before in terms of loneliness and you know stress and depression, for example. Is social personal connection um really key in happiness, Amanda, in your opinion?

Dr Amanda Potter: 35:39

It is, and it's the second one actually. There's a really interesting Harvard longitudinal study which looked at social connection and meaningful relationships. And one of the clearest messages I got from that research was that good relationships help us to feel happier and healthier, and there's a real connection between those relationships and our long-term sustained experience of happiness, and it has such a restorative and healing power. So those relationships that we have are real mood boosters and mood busters, if you know that negative mood buster, if you like. So for me, I think that Harvard longitudinal study is called What Makes a Good Life: Lessons from the Longest Study on Happiness 2016. Personal connection is absolutely key.

SPEAKER_00: 36:26

And I've known for a while that social support is one of the number one predictors of well-being, isn't it? O over time and over many cultures.

Dr Amanda Potter: 36:36

Absolutely. And I think that's why I think it's number two for me.

SPEAKER_00: 36:39

So what's next, Amanda?

Dr Amanda Potter: 36:41

In addition to sleep and personal connection, my next one is choice. And we've talked about this on a few of the previous podcasts about the importance of choice and having options, and then once you've made your choice, actually committing to that choice. And so increased happiness happens because we want to firstly have options, and then once we've made our choice, we want to have all of the remaining options to disappear so that we think our selection is the best option.

SPEAKER_00: 37:11

That point you made there around having the choice, but then once you've made that uh decision, then just you know, sticking to it reminds me of some research around the paradox of choice, Barry Schwartz, I think, wasn't it, who suggested the idea of you know having just too many things up in the air and too many choices doesn't necessarily lead to uh a satisfied mind or happiness.

Dr Amanda Potter: 37:32

I think that's absolutely key. So that's my number three.

SPEAKER_00: 37:35

Fantastic. And anything else?

Dr Amanda Potter: 37:37

The next one fits with the topic that we've been talking about quite a lot today already, which is all about purpose and meaning, making sure that in our day, in our lives, whether it's at work or at home, that we have that sense of purpose and meaning. That's my number four.

SPEAKER_00: 37:51

Can I just recap then? So we've been through some areas that um you've described which are really key in happiness. Um, first of all, we talked about sleep and the importance of light, for example, getting enough light in the morning and actually dimming the lights and being really aware of just slowing our sort of activation levels down before we go to sleep. We next talked about uh personal connection. You talked about the Harvard longitudinal study, the importance of social connection and meaningful relationships. So good relationships keep us happier and healthier. And we talked about choices as well. So um having the ability to have choices, but you know, once you've made the decision, you know, sticking with them. And then last of all, we talked about purpose and meaning, which has been a theme that's sort of run through um this podcast from our work, our social pursuits, pursuits, and when we make a difference in people's lives.

Dr Amanda Potter: 38:42

That's a great summary, Christian. And I think I'd like to add two more actually, which is gratitude, because Sarah and I talk a lot about the importance of gratitude. So being thankful and appreciating what we have, but also kindness in that as well. So doing things for others, I think that makes a great deal of difference. The more that we can be generous and help other people, but also be thankful and be grateful and appreciate when other people do things for us, but not necessarily from a reciprocity perspective, not expecting things or needing things from other people, but actually that sense of gratitude and appreciation, I think, is key. And that sense of wanting to help others and be kind and just be helpful for others, I think is absolutely key. It gives that real sense of positivity and belief, and it really primes us for the release of the right neurotransmitters and chemicals and hormones. So one is gratitude and kindness, and the next one for me is about presence. And it's the last one, I think it's one that we struggle with as a race. We are so distracted all the time. And I believe a distracted mind is an unhappy mind. And I think we need to be present and attentive and in the moment to be the best versions of ourselves. And I know I'm someone who can be horrible. And get distracted by my phone when I'm anxious or by my laptop when I've got thousands of emails that are coming in because I want to clear my desk. But actually, I need to focus on the person in front of me and really truly invest in them in that moment and do the very best I can in that moment for that person and be present. So that's my last one, presence.

SPEAKER_00: 40:19

Yeah, it does remind me of some research I read quite recently around the use of mobile phones. Well, I know that I'm certainly guilty of sometimes having my mobile phone. If I'm at a dinner or a family dinner, I might not, I won't be on the phone, but I'll have my mobile phone maybe next to me. It becomes a habit. But there has been research that suggests that um other people, family or friends, will see the phone or they'll be sort of aware of it, even unconsciously, and then you know, automatically see that I'm not giving them a full attention, that they're they're not my priority. So it's something that um is kind of like you know, under the surface, an unconscious thing, but um that has research is suggesting that even just having your phone sort of on a table gives us that sort of that message that to that person that you is next to you is not your number one focus.

Dr Amanda Potter: 41:05

Well, that's great advice. I'm definitely gonna move my phone away in future.

SPEAKER_00: 41:10

So just for our listeners, let's do a recap of those things that are really important to our happiness. So, first of all, sleep, getting good quality sleep, personal connection, having choices in life, purpose and meaning, gratitude, and presence, being focused, giving attention and time.

Dr Amanda Potter: 41:28

Nice little list for me to practice every day. Thank you, Christian.

SPEAKER_00: 41:31

This has all been fascinating, and I've really enjoyed my first experience as being your yeah co-host.

Dr Amanda Potter: 41:36

Very good.

SPEAKER_00: 41:37

If you'd like to hear more about our research, looking at resilience and well-being, you can download our white paper from the website wwwzircon-mc.co.uk, or feel free to contact us at hello at btalent.com.

Dr Amanda Potter: 41:52

Thank you, Christian, and thank you for being the host today. Angela, I still miss you. And thank you everyone for listening. I hope you have a wonderful and successful day, and thank you so much for listening to this podcast.