Ep12 How to Have Courageous Conversations

We all have to have difficult conversations from time to time and some of these can be particularly challenging. What can we do to have more courageous conversations? In this episode, the Chief Psychology Officer explores how to navigate through uncomfortable topics with confidence, honesty and kindness and the impact avoiding these conversations can have on Psychological Safety.

Amanda will look at different psychological theories, the latest research findings and share her insights from her work with organisations and individuals. She will also share some practical tips for delivering effective feedback and discuss different techniques for managing emotions from a neuroscience perspective.

In this episode, Amanda is being interviewed by Angela Malik.

The Chief Psychology Officer website is now available https://www.thecpo.co.uk/
To contact Amanda via email: TheCPO@zircon-mc.co.uk

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To contact Amanda or Angela via LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amandapotterzircon and linkedin.com/in/angela-malik-1749b84b

For more information about the work we do with clients in this space please contact the Zircon team on +44 (0)208 645 0222. For more information about the BeTalent Resilience questionnaires mentioned in this podcast please go to: https://www.betalent.com

Timestamps

How to have Courageous Conversations

·       00:00 – Introduction to (Courageous) Conversations with Friends

·       01:13 – What is a Courageous Conversation?

·       02:23 – Why is this so important?

·       03:07 – Hyper-focusing

Breaking barriers, not bad

·       04:11 – Psychological blockers

·       04:26 – Bystander Apathy

·       06:03 – Imposter Syndrome revisited

·       07:32 – External Locus of Control revisited

·       08:01 – Internal Locus of Control revisited

·       08:30 – I need control

·       10:09 – Signs of discomfort

·       10:19 – Micro-assessments

·       11:16 – Link between Courageous Conversation & Psychological Safety

The real world explained…

·       12:19 – €1 Billion in product damage!

·       13:12 – It’s not just about people, it’s also the business

·       14:24 – Psychologists aren’t immune to risks of unsafe environments

·       16:00 – Improving Communication

·       16:54 – Times when courage is needed

·       17:14 – Setting Goals & Objectives

·       17:22 – Establishing Trust

·       18:16 – Practice makes perfect

·       19:27 – It can happen to anyone

Bring on the Neuroscience!

·       20:39 – Neuroscience! What happens…

·       22:43 – Negativity Bias

·       25:22 – How to deliver difficult messages in an accepting way

Creating Courageous Conversations & QBID

·       26:58 – Prepare!

·       27:17 – Manage your own emotions

·       27:48 – Do you like role play?

·       28:39 – Be yourself

·       29:05 – QBID

Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/

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To access the research white papers mentioned in this and other podcasts, please go to: https://www.betalent.com/research

For more information about the BeTalent suite of tools and platform please contact: Hello@BeTalent.com

Transcript

Angela Malik: 0:04

Welcome to this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer with Dr. Amanda Potter, chartered psychologist and CEO of Zircon. I'm Angela Malik, Client Relationship Manager at Zircon. And I'm happy to be here again. Thank you, Angela. So today, Amanda, we'll be talking about courageous conversations.

Dr Amanda Potter: 0:24

Yes, so all of us need to know how to handle those difficult conversations in a really courageous way and how can we get the best out of them? I know personally that I worry about those tricky conversations where I think that I might hurt someone or they might feel offended, or if I say something very slightly wrong, they may think badly of me. So we wanted to talk today about how can we be more courageous and face up to those difficult conversations.

Angela Malik: 0:59

I suppose then you've already taken the first step to define what makes a conversation courageous. I guess if a difficult conversation is one where we have to manage emotions and information in a sensitive way, then a courageous conversation is what exactly?

Dr Amanda Potter: 1:17

So I agree. I think we definitely should differentiate between the two, and I think we should also clarify why this is important to talk about. Let's start with differentiating between the two. For me, a difficult conversation is when you struggle to manage your own emotions and you focus somewhat on how you are feeling as you go into that conversation rather than focusing on the other person. However, a courageous conversation is when you face up to those feelings, to the emotions and to the situation, and you focus very much on the other person and you persist with that conversation and preparing for it so that you can help the individual and follow through with that promise that you've made. And usually it's a conversation you'd prefer to avoid, but you don't avoid it, you do it.

Angela Malik: 2:13

So you see that risk and you feel that fear, but you just persist and continue on and be brave. Completely. So why is this an important topic?

Dr Amanda Potter: 2:25

Every day we have to have challenging or difficult conversations. They may be the small conversations with a colleague, or they could be those very big conversations that you have with your line manager or with a senior member of your team or a client or stakeholder. This podcast will help us to understand the psychological blockers that inhibit us or stop us from wanting to have those conversations and to understand why we prefer to avoid them, and we'll make some suggestions and provide some techniques and ideas for how we can be more courageous in facing up to those conversations in a much more positive way. And I have to say, I was talking to Sarah about this topic, and she was saying by even calling the conversation a courageous conversation, the label of it means that we start to become fearful of it, we start to recognize the difficulty of having the conversation, which means we over-emphasize its importance or we highly emphasize its importance. And very often those conversations, of course, are important, but we need to have perspective and we need to have balance. So what we're trying to do in this podcast is to give people that perspective and to give people that sense of balance.

Angela Malik: 3:47

That's an interesting point that Sarah, our COO, made about the risk of hyper-focusing on the difficulty of a conversation and potentially missing the focus of the outcome of what you want to achieve. That's a really good point.

Dr Amanda Potter: 4:02

And it would be great to go through each of the psychological blockers that we have that stop us from having courageous conversations. So, what might some of those psychological blockers be? So, from our research, we've identified four main reasons why people might avoid having courageous conversations, and it would be great to go through each of them. What's the first one? So the first one is bystander apathy. Bystander apathy is when you assume that someone else will step in and deliver that feedback or manage that situation on your behalf. There was a lot of research around bystander apathy in psychology many years ago, and the research has shown that if someone was to fall ill on the curb side, for example, if there are many people around walking, shopping, and so on, what will happen is everyone will assume that someone else will look after that person, someone else will be better placed and more capable to look after that person. That concept is bystander apathy. If, however, someone was to fall over on that curbside and you're one of the few people who are walking past, people are much more likely to step in and to help that person. So the first reason why people avoid having courageous conversations is bystander apathy and believing that someone else might be more present, more capable, more able to give that feedback.

Angela Malik: 5:33

That's interesting because you think, well, if I've noticed this, someone else definitely has too. So they can do that difficult thing and talk to that person, and I'll just stay safe over here in my corner.

Dr Amanda Potter: 5:47

It could be about safety, but it also could be about they're more able to do that than I am, which actually leads on to the second reason why someone might avoid having a courageous conversation or in this situation that I'm describing, giving difficult feedback. For example, imposter syndrome. We talk about imposter syndrome quite a lot, but people who have imposter syndrome in aspects of life tend to experience low levels of belief. I'm not capable of giving this feedback in a way that the other person can learn from it and benefit from it. And so the individual questions their ability and their capability to positively impact and to create a positive outcome for the individual and therefore avoids.

Angela Malik: 6:36

I can relate to that one especially because being rather new to the field of business psychology, I have had that thought of I'm not qualified to comment on this, or I'm not qualified to have an opinion on this or give my feedback.

Dr Amanda Potter: 6:51

And you're so wrong because actually we love your opinion, we love your feedback. And actually the fact that you have joined our organization from a different industry means that you ask questions that we didn't even know needed answering. So, how wrong you are, Angela, how much value you add, it's amazing.

Angela Malik: 7:09

Well, I'm glad to hear that. So you said there were four psychological blockers that prevent people from having courageous conversations. You've talked about bystander apathy and now imposter syndrome. What are the next two?

Dr Amanda Potter: 7:23

The next two are external locus of control and a desire to control outcomes. So let's look at each of them in turn. The first one, external locus of control. This is when you believe that your actions, your behavior, your decisions have limited impact on the environment around you and that you aren't able to make a significant difference. So no matter what you do or what you say, in the long run, you're not going to have the power to influence your environment or the situation. If you have an internal locus of control on the other side of the scale, you believe that you are able to influence, you are able to have the power, and you are able to change that environment and that situation. So people who have an external locus of control don't genuinely believe that they're going to make that much difference anyway. So what's the point? So that might be one reason why people avoid having courageous conversations. You mentioned wanting control. We mentioned on a previous podcast that the brain likes predictability and dislikes ambiguity. When we walk into a situation where we're not in control, our brains don't like it because it can't predict what's going to be happening. It sends us warning signals to avoid those situations in preference for consistency, control, and simplicity. And so we have a natural desire or urge to stay away from situations where we're unclear what the outcome might be or how we might feel or whether we're going to be successful or not.

Angela Malik: 9:10

That last point you made about desire and control really reminds me of some of the things we were talking about in episode 10, I think it was, facing up to change. There were lots of tips in there about overcoming that urge to lean towards predictability and ways to embrace ambiguity.

Dr Amanda Potter: 9:29

Absolutely. We talk about the importance of facing up to frustration as a part of the learning process. We haven't really related this back to the feeling of frustration, but I think the feeling we have when we're facing difficult conversations or having to give negative feedback is that sense of unease because we really want to do the very best we can for someone, but very often we're driven by these biases, these reasons why we seek to avoid, which are, in summary, then bystander apathy, imposter syndrome, external locus of control, and a desire to control outcome.

Angela Malik: 10:08

So, with these psychological blockers in mind, how do we know if someone's not comfortable giving feedback or having a courageous conversation?

Dr Amanda Potter: 10:18

So we might start to see microassessments. We talk about microassessments in psychological safety. This is when someone avoids asking questions, they stop making suggestions, they stop offering alternatives or stop innovating. In a situation of a courageous conversation, the type of behavior we start to see is people become very tell. They can become very direct and short and to the point. And that can often be driven by discomfort, but they're no longer open to alternatives. They just want to get through the conversation in as limited time as possible with as little unease as possible, so they can become quite directive in their style or their approach. They lose the question.

Angela Malik: 11:02

So you mentioned microassessments, and I believe that comes from Amy Edmondson's research on psychological safety, doesn't it? It does.

Dr Amanda Potter: 11:11

That's certainly where we first heard about the concept of microassessments.

Angela Malik: 11:15

So I assume then there's a link between courageous conversations and psychological safety. Completely.

Dr Amanda Potter: 11:21

Our research has shown that teams that are feeling psychologically safe are more likely to have courageous conversations. They're more likely to give negative feedback and to face up to those difficult circumstances and deal with those situations that they would normally prefer to avoid, particularly when they feel unsafe. They stay very much under the radar. Can you think of any relevant examples you can share of this? We've been working with a major global client who has a highly consensus-driven culture. They're very top-down in terms of their communication, and there is a strong deference to leadership. There is a strong desire to get their products right and to please. But this has resulted in diminished psychological safety. As a result of this environment, the client recently had to recall nearly 1 billion euros of a product from the market. Oh my goodness. It's unbelievable because this organization is so caring, so diligent, so well structured, and so focused on their talent and their development, and they're very thoughtful about their decision making. This recall sent shock waves throughout the whole company globally. They were so surprised that it happened. It was not foreseen at all in any way. They just didn't believe that they could make such an error. It really pushed this organization to get serious about psychological safety. And as a result, they're talking to us about how they can be more courageous, be more honest, be more open, and avoid those microassessments, but also avoid those biases that I've also mentioned that might be the blockers for having courageous conversations.

Angela Malik: 13:11

So it sounds like having courageous conversations is not just about dealing with difficult coworkers or tackling uncomfortable topics with the people who report to you. It affects the whole business.

Dr Amanda Potter: 13:26

Very true. Good conversations is relevant, of course, to every aspect of business. It's not just about leader and employee conversations, it's also about peer-to-peer feedback and conversations. So it's relevant to everyone. I literally, after we prepared for this podcast yesterday, Angela, chatted to one of our business psychologists, Katie, about some feedback that she needs to give to one of the stakeholders. And that's going to need to be quite a courageous conversation because it's going to be quite tricky and quite difficult. And we have to give feedback. We have to make sure the standards within Xircon and BeTalent are at the standard we need them to be. And to sell someone that their work is not up to standards requires courage from the person who's delivering that message. It just struck me that every day we have small and large conversations that really require a little bit of courage from each of us.

Angela Malik: 14:24

Absolutely. And it shows that as business psychologists, we are not immune to the risks of psychological unsafety.

Dr Amanda Potter: 14:33

If we get it wrong, we we worry about how we might be perceived or how they might feel. And even though those conversations might feel difficult, we really shouldn't avoid them. We owe it to the person that they receive that feedback. In fact, the more difficult conversations tend to be, the more important they are very much for that individual to help them learn. And given what we've just published on the failure podcasts, we know very clearly that we need to fail to learn, or at least we need to make errors from a neuroscientific perspective to focus the brain and to learn. But it's just not that comfortable. And culturally, we're not used to it. I really used to find feedback personally desperately uncomfortable to receive. And I used to struggle with giving feedback to. I used to always defer to her if there was a tricky conversation to be had in the organization. And I've seen her navigate really quite uncomfortable and tricky conversations in such a sophisticated way. And I'd like to talk about some of the things I've learned from Sarah and I've seen her practice, but also some of the things I've seen and learnt from some of our other psychologists we work with and clients too, because we've combined those into a collective of some great tips that we think will really help.

Angela Malik: 15:56

I'm really keen to hear some of these tips. It's it falls into sort of upskilling our communication skills, isn't it? Because everything is about communicating and how we can improve that. Improving our communication in general is only going to be beneficial. Improving our communication to have those creative conversations is going to benefit ourselves, our colleagues, help them learn, but also potentially avoid very serious business failure.

Dr Amanda Potter: 16:24

It will impact culture. So given what we've talked about with psychological safety podcasts, the failure podcasts, it will impact culture and the way we do business and the way we talk to each other if we can be a lot more frank and almost bring bravery and courageous behaviors into everyday conversations. We don't need to build it up, as Sarah suggested, into a big thing before we end up having to have the conversation. We just learn to do it as part of everyday's conversation.

Angela Malik: 16:53

Thinking of that, are there particular times when you need to be more courageous? Definitely.

Dr Amanda Potter: 17:00

Often we think about four types of conversations at work being particularly tricky. They're often the one we've been talking about quite a lot so far, which is giving and receiving feedback. Another might be around setting goals and objectives or clarifying an individual's role and purpose. A third might be establishing trust and really being very honest with somebody about their role within the organization or their purpose within the organization and how you see them. And finally, it might be solving some sticky problems where the answer is not obvious. But actually, every day we should be prepared to have difficult or challenging or courageous conversations in order for us to disagree, innovate, problem solve, and so on. Because it's good for us not to agree and it's good for us to challenge each other, give each other feedback, have a different perspective, because this is the basis of psychological safety. So there is a brilliant link, I think, between courageous conversations and psychological safety.

Angela Malik: 18:06

I think also it's good to keep in mind that we're talking about skills here, right? This isn't just an inborn talent. It means you can cultivate that. So the more you practice having tricky conversations, courageous conversations, the better you get at it, the more comfortable you feel in that space.

Dr Amanda Potter: 18:26

You're so right, because I genuinely wasn't great at it. You'd think with 30 years of being a psychologist and running a business for 22 years, that I would be marvelous at it. I'm good at it, but I'm not as good as some of my colleagues who are fantastic at it, but I recognize that. I've seen what they do so well, and that's what I'd like to do in terms of the summary. But I would also like to remember that if we don't practice these things and we avoid those courageous conversations, what we'll start to see are some quite passive aggressive behaviors or toxic behaviors in the organization or the team that can result, and we've seen this with clients, in a blame culture, or with people staying under the radar and avoiding topics, or they may try to get people together, have sidebar conversations in order to manipulate the situation. So they're not honest and upfront in the way in which they interact.

Angela Malik: 19:26

Those risks, Amanda, that you've just mentioned can happen with anyone in an organization. They don't just relate to underperformers or those who maybe aren't delivering as as well as they could be. I mean, thinking about your example with the billion euro product recall, it sounds like everyone needs to be courageous.

Dr Amanda Potter: 19:48

Very, very true. In no way could the employees of this organization be defined as underperformers or be described as people who were not delivering. They were absolutely working their hardest to deliver the purpose, the goals, the aspirations of the organization. But culturally, because they were not working in a psychologically safe environment, they weren't prepared to have those courageous conversations. And therefore, the mistakes were being made. And the small mistakes are the signals that some bigger mistakes are going to be happening, but they were not alerting each other and the organization to those mistakes. And so, as an organization, they are being much braver now and they are focusing on this and they recognize the need to change their culture to be a courageous culture.

Angela Malik: 20:38

So let's talk neuroscience. What happens when we're faced with conducting or being part of an impending challenging conversation?

Dr Amanda Potter: 20:47

So it's very much about the fight or flight. Our brains are wired to be very much aware of safety risks. This is driven by the amygdala. And we know that the amygdala is extremely efficient and extremely attentive and scans the environment. The amygdala signals to the adrenal gland to release adrenaline and cortisol, the stress hormone, to enable that fight or flight. We talked in the failure podcast last week about epinephrine and adrenaline, helps us with attention, and acetylcholine helps us with focus. And the combination with cortisol, which increases sugars in the bloodstream and curbs non-essential functions that would interrupt fight or flight, together, what they do is give us the power and the focus and the attention to get out of the way of the threat or the risk. So, what happens when we are facing an impending difficult or courageous conversation is that we're on alert and we are prepared by releasing all these hormones and neurotransmitters so that we can avoid if we need to or get away from the situation.

Angela Malik: 21:59

So the fight or flight response that feels like a very acute stress response. What if we have to have a number of these conversations and there's a restructure going on, for example, or the organization is downsizing and someone is forced to have a courageous conversation for hours on end with different individuals?

Dr Amanda Potter: 22:21

That's such a good point because many of our clients have to do this very often because we work with clients to help conduct the assessments for restructure when they are downsizing. And as we are facing, according to the financial analysts, a looming recession, this may be happening again. But constant restructure and downsizing means that we end up having this negativity bias because the amygdala is on high alert. And this is when we unconsciously look out for threat and danger more than anything else. And we fear delivering or receiving negative feedback and we almost overly process and worry about what might happen. So, how do we manage this? So you may remember, Angela, that the prefrontal cortex helps to control and mitigate the biases. It helps us to manage the automated response from the amygdala and rationalize the extent of the risk and put a stop to the emotional response. So we need to enhance our prefrontal cortex and use it more so that we balance the very attentive focus from the amygdala, which is looking out there for threat and risk.

Angela Malik: 23:37

I think I read that the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala can grow or shrink depending on the environment that we're in and the scenarios that we're dealing with.

Dr Amanda Potter: 23:49

Completely true. And this relates to psychological safety. When we're stressed and on alert, we take fewer risks and we're likely to follow the crowd and go with the consensus. So stress is the enemy. Prolonged stress can cause the prefrontal cortex to physically shrink and weaken. And at the same time, the amygdala can strengthen and can grow. The impact of that is that we avoid the risk, we avoid the stress, and we take the safer path, which is not to have the courageous conversation. So, to summarize the neuroscience piece around courageous conversations, we need to strengthen the prefrontal cortex in order to be stronger at giving and receiving feedback and to have more courageous conversations. And so that means we need to rationalize. We need to not be a slave to the amygdala, and we need to make sure that we are managing our stress levels. So psychological safety from a neuroscientific perspective has an impact on our preparedness to have courageous conversations because the more unsafe we feel, the more stress we feel, the more we're enhancing the amygdala, and the less likely we are then going to feel comfortable having challenging or difficult conversations because we're not bringing in that prefrontal cortex.

Angela Malik: 25:13

I totally understand though, because no one likes to receive negative feedback. And frankly, I don't know many people who enjoy giving negative feedback. How can we help our listeners to prepare to deliver difficult messages in a more accepting way?

Dr Amanda Potter: 25:29

The research and our experience very much indicate that employees are much more motivated to improve and to learn from feedback when the source of the feedback is perceived to be credible, when there's evidence or data, and when the feedback is of high quality, when there is actual information and facts rather than being vague and very wafty. The other thing is when the feedback is delivered in a considerate manner, when the individual who is delivering the message is not having an emotion, is objective about the way in which that feedback is delivered. Finally, another way could be is when the focus is on strengths rather than focusing solely on development gaps. And whilst you have to give negative feedback, it's good to always remember the strengths-based approach that everybody has weaknesses and everybody has strengths. Nobody is going to be fabulous at everything. So it's understandable that there are some gaps. But the key is do you need to do these things in order to succeed? If you do, then you need to improve and you need to learn.

Angela Malik: 26:38

So, how can we transform difficult conversations into courageous conversations?

Dr Amanda Potter: 26:43

So, Angela, there are six ways we can do this. And I recently saw one of my clients demonstrate many of these in a conversation she was having with one of her team. If I could, I'll go through each of them. The first one is to prepare. It seems obvious, but the key is to think about the outcome you would like to achieve. Rather than focusing on how you would like to avoid avoidant goals, what you need to think about is the approach goals, so the positive outcomes that you would like to achieve. The second is to manage your own emotions. Check your self-talk. How do you feel about the conversation? Understand why you perceive it to be difficult, and start to reframe some of the language you're using in your head about the conversation towards the difference you can make for that individual, the purpose of the conversation, and the benefit it will bring. Focus on the other person rather than yourself. The next, we often avoid this, but practice. Role-playing can really help because what I have observed in myself is that unless I practice something, or the more I try it, the better I get. This podcast, I hope, is an example. We're getting a little bit slicker each time, Angela. I think so. Exactly, I hope so. If we don't practice, we can be clumsy and we question ourselves and we stumble over our words.

Angela Malik: 28:11

I suppose practicing and doing role-playing, that's another way to sort of cement that emotional control in ourselves, because it's a lot harder to be to have a visceral reaction in the moment when you've already prepared to have those emotions in advance.

Dr Amanda Potter: 28:27

When you've been tested, you realize it's really not as bad as you thought it was going to be. Very often, when we go out of courageous conversations, we have that moment of, oh, that wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. The last three are to be yourself, don't play a role. Even though I've mentioned a couple of people who are fantastic at courageous conversations in my organization, and also I've got a couple of clients who I've seen who are incredibly courageous in their conversations. Don't try to emulate their behavior or style. Be yourself, be authentic, and be you. And the next one is to make sure you go in with a questioning style. We have a model called Cubid, which is question, behavior, impact, do differently. So QBID, QBID. We use this approach for all difficult feedbacks and for all courageous conversations. So you start by asking questions, you then reflect back on the behavior that you've seen through that conversation, you talk about the impact that behaviour has had or the result it has created, and you discuss and agree what that person could do differently. And while you're doing this, you listen truly without judgment. And finally, this was not one I'm good at because I'm high on impulsive on our questionnaires, which is to pick your moment. My issue is when I have a situation, I want to deal with it, I want to get rid of it, I want to take it off my plate, I want to cross it off my list, not because I want to have dopamine, but actually because I want to remove. That feeling of anxiety and stress. And so I don't pick my moment. I can blurt it out or I can jump into a conversation without fully thinking whether the other person is in a good state of mind. It's the right time for them. Are they tired? Are they depleted? And are they ready to receive that message? And it's really about them, not about you. They are the six suggestions for courageous conversations.

Angela Malik: 30:23

So we have prepare, manage your own emotions, practice, do some role-playing, be yourself, ask questions, and think about timing. And I would add to that that I think the most crucial thing for me when I'm thinking about having a courageous conversation is respect, respect, respect. It's easy to come across as being non-judgmental and being truly listening when you've when you're already entering that conversation with a degree of respect for your conversation partner and for what they have to say.

Dr Amanda Potter: 30:57

Totally agree. I think there's a balance between being honest and considering the other person's emotions. But I would love to just remind people of that QBID model, so QBID, question behavior, impact do differently. That's a fantastic model that has really helped me over the last 10 years since I learnt it in giving feedback and I share it with a number of clients and all of us within the team use it. It's very simple. And as long as you start with questions, what you're doing is you're putting the onus on the individual to solve the problem and they help to identify the gap or the risk without you having to deliver the tricky conversation or the tricky message. It sounds quite collaborative in its approach. It is. And so I'm going to just end with a final example. Imagine, Angela, I had to give you some feedback on a reasoning test to let you know that you had not performed well, maybe at the second or third percentile. If I was to just deliver that message, that would be quite hard to hear. But if I was to ask, go in with the qubit model and ask you a number of questions about preparation, about where you were when you completed it, about your experience you've had completing tests, then I would understand that you maybe completed the test on the train, that you lost the Wi-Fi. And actually there were other situations or circumstances that impacted your ability to complete that test within the time allowed. If I hadn't asked those questions, I would have made some assumptions. And assumptions make us clumsy when delivering feedback. So the real message for this podcast is that questions are fundamental for delivering feedback and having courageous conversations. Please don't go in having the answers or believing that it's got to be a one-way conversation.

Angela Malik: 32:46

I think your example there of questioning and then introducing other perspectives to why that performance was the way it was. It also allows your conversation partner to save face a little. So they're more receptive to hearing the bad feedback because they don't have to turn around and say, yes, it's me. I'm just very bad at I'm just very bad at what I've done. It gives them a chance to say, yes, could have done better. And let's think of ways that we could improve.

Dr Amanda Potter: 33:20

And that is actually a true example. So someone did once complete a reasoning test on the train and did only achieve about the third percentile, and I did have to give them feedback. And if I had jumped in and just said that you failed, you performed at the third percentile, you're way below average, then I would have had a different perspective rather than from that test, we know that person can't reason. What we learned is that person should have probably planned a little better about when they were going to complete the reasoning test.

Angela Malik: 33:49

So this has been such an interesting conversation. And even though a lot of it might seem to be common sense, it's really about enhancing the communication skills that we already have, recognizing the emotions and physiological responses that we and our conversation partners might be experiencing and then responding appropriately. Would you agree?

Dr Amanda Potter: 34:11

I completely agree. It's all about the way we communicate and share information and receive information. We naturally respond to difficulty from a physiological, emotional, and psychological response in one way, but we need to train ourselves to be more courageous to face up to those conversations, even though it feels difficult or we might feel tense or anxious about them. So hopefully we've given some tips in this podcast, which will be helpful.

Angela Malik: 34:40

I think the tips you've provided will definitely help us all practice our skills here and go into courageous conversations with more confidence. Thank you so much, Amanda, for such a fascinating conversation.

Dr Amanda Potter: 34:54

You're very welcome. Thank you, Angela, for hosting.

Angela Malik: 34:57

Some of our listeners may not be aware that we have an amazing website for the Chief Psychology Officer, which can be found at www.thecpo.co.uk or www.thechiefpsychologyofficer.co.uk. And this site gives access to all of our podcasts, but also has links to your preferred podcast platform, so Apple, Spotify, or Google.

Dr Amanda Potter: 35:23

Thank you, Angela. And I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank Monica Mark for her research and for her preparation for this podcast.

Angela Malik: 35:32

And if you enjoyed this episode of the Chief Psychology Officer, or indeed any of the episodes, please follow Zirkon on LinkedIn where we post articles related to the podcast topics as well as other useful and insightful information. Please rate and comment on the podcast on your preferred streaming platform.

Dr Amanda Potter: 35:50

Thank you, Angela. And just to let our listeners know, the next podcast will be on endurance, stamina, and staying power. And we have the most knowledgeable and experienced guest. Her name is Claire Dale, and she is the author of Physical Intelligence. Thank you.